zen7 30 second : leela-zero 30 second, Zen7 won consistently

[kyotosato]

...Then you use a weak CPU with no GPU... which come on, is not a fair test... everybody has at least a gtx 1080ti these days. Any test or benchmark that doesn't include a >= gtx 1080 isn't a real world test imho

My very first post is not a test on a pentium box.
--- Acer One 10 ; cpu: Intel® Atom™ x5-Z8350 (32 bit, NOT 64 bit) 1.4 GHz; Quad-core; OS: windows 10 ---
This box does have a gpu card GPU: HD Graphics (Cherry Trail); and core: BLAS Nehalem. So the run is not so bias toward zen7. however, the box is an inferior one.

[kyotosato]

black passed mid game...

in sabaki, after resigned, the last move is recorded as "passed" i noticed.

[kyotosato]

Imagine a short race between a Tour de France competitor and a seven year old child on EQUAL bikes (both sized for that seven year old child)

That is true. there was once i played at temgen website with an opponent who employed zen7 with cloud computing CPU against me with zen7 on my pentium box, my opponent won gradually. and took less computing time, more interesting is that some of my opponent's moves were not or with low winrate on my hotspots lists. not on my hotspots list bothers me more. better CPU means fast iteration less time consumed for zen series.

As for the time, 10 sec per move with 12-core, rapid access and a lot of ram is probably at least as much as 30" on an older computer.

I agree

[kyotosato]

command line for gtp4zen :
-z 6 -t 12 -T 30 -s 80000
command line for LZ13 :
--gtp -w 5d6d9.txt --noponder -r 10 -t 4 --gpu 0 --gpu 1
time_settings 0 30 1

the author of gtp4zen suggested higher -s and -T value will increase zen's strength. I used -s 200000 on my prior test run, you may try higher -s setting, see if the match outcome changes.

[Vargo]

New H3 game between LZ13 and gtp4zen(v6) with two differences :
-new network c0cb60.txt for LZ13
-parameter -s 300000 for gtp4zen

no weird passing this time, but same outcome...
Very nice game, I think I'll run more of these games, but with 10" per move, to see if LZ wins at H3 consistently or not.
2-3 games is not enough to have an opinion.

I'm more and more tempted to buy z7 to test the difference

THE GAME

[as0770]

command line for gtp4zen :
-z 6 -t 12 -T 30 -s 80000
command line for LZ13 :
--gtp -w 5d6d9.txt --noponder -r 10 -t 4 --gpu 0 --gpu 1
time_settings 0 30 1

the author of gtp4zen suggested higher -s and -T value will increase zen's strength. I used -s 200000 on my prior test run, you may try higher -s setting, see if the match outcome changes.

What exactly does the -s value, and how high can it be set?

[Vargo]

What exactly does the -s value, and how high can it be set?

s is for strength (default =10000), it must be the number of playouts, or visits or such

I made a simple test with gtp4zen (v6):
-T 1 -s 300000 (time=1s per move, 300000 playouts) z6 plays at 1sec. per move
-T 100 -s 1000 z6 plays instantly, although T=100sec per move

So, I think when you set T=a and S=b, z6 plays as soon as it reaches a or b, whichever comes first.

About the number of cores supported by Zen, in another thread, pookpooi said that Zen7 supports 10 cores, and zen6 only 8.

[pnprog]

Hi!

pnprog:
Go GridMaster is just what I need for my android devices. thanks to your creation, a decent and nice product. i just wonder why you didn't continue to go further to AI 19x19?

What do you mean exactly?

[pnprog]

everybody has at least a gtx 1080ti these days. Any test or benchmark that doesn't include a >= gtx 1080 isn't a real world test imho

Well, my most powerful computer is equipped with an Nvidia integrated GPU, the GeForce GT 720M which was probably already a joke at the time it was released.

So here is a comparison benchmark: Nvidia GTX 1080-Ti vs GeForce GT 720M, the Nvidia-GTX-1080-Ti is apparently 3000% faster than my GPU

Now, I think a good share of Go players use old computers or laptops, at least not gamers computers. The average age of the Go player population (in the east) might be on of the factor. Also, running a low computer is an excellent incentive to play Go, as this game does not require a gamer computer.

So for people like me, comparative tests on low end computers are quite interesting.

[kyotosato]

Hi!
What do you mean exactly?

my mistake, i thought you're Go GridMaster's author.

Now, I think a good share of Go players use old computers or laptops, at least not gamers computers. The average age of the Go player population (in the east) might be on of the factor. Also, running a low computer is an excellent incentive to play Go, as this game does not require a gamer computer.

exactly! most members of my small go club/circle do not interested in computer or don't have one, therefore an android AQ or android Crazystone could be very valuable to them. age is a factor.

but why do you think it is an incentive by employing a low end computer (not require a gamer computer is for sure, but a high end computer certainly would help.)

So for people like me, comparative tests on low end computers are quite interesting.

What is the point? as a game reviewer's point of view.

[pnprog]

but why do you think it is an incentive by employing a low end computer (not require a gamer computer is for sure, but a high end computer certainly would help.)

What is the point? as a game reviewer's point of view.

My phrasing is not so good, but simply speaking, I discovered Go and started playing Go because at that time, I did not own a fast computer, only second hand laptop. At that time, if I had possessed a fast computer, I would probably have kept playing mainstream games, like Word of Warcraft, Diablo3, CounterStrike...

I kept purchasing second hand computers these last 10 years, a sort of ecological activism (I don't play games, except Go, and I use Linux, so no need of modern computer). So I am interested in strong bots that can run on slow computer.

Now, with all those strong bots available, and also because it would help me develop GRP, I am considering purchasing a recent/powerful computer

[Vargo]

6 games match (H3) between LZ13(c0cb60) and gtp4zen (V6) 10" per move

(Sabaki 0.33.4, win10, i9-7920X, 2x1080Ti)

command line for gtp4zen :
-z 6 -t 12 -T 10 -s 200000

command line for LZ13 :
--gtp -w c0cb60.txt --noponder -r 10 -t 4 --gpu 0 --gpu 1
time_settings 0 10 1

Result : 3-3 for this match , zen won its 3 games by (early) resignation.

(in the nine H3 games in total, LZ wins 6-3)
In conclusion, on my PC, LZ is very probably 3 stones stronger than Zen6.

Take a look at the Z3 game

And now, I'll let my computer (and my flat) cool down, because between CPU-fan and GPU-fans, it's very hot !


PS. In the controversy between high-end and low-end computers , I would make a difference between
a) actually playing go : a low-end computer can be very well suited if you're not Ke Jie.
b) for computer go, to test the Elo-strength of a program, determine if it's pro strength, or such things, I think you need good CPU/GPU

The games :
L1
L2
L3
Z1
Z2
Z3 !

[kyotosato]

What exactly does the -s value, and how high can it be set?

-s [ --strength ] arg Set the playing strength (default 10000)
In the website i provided, there were discussion about -s default is too low, some suggested 150000, i use 200000, i may find the value somewhere else. as to -s max, no where to find. another problem might be -T some said it is 20 max even if you set more than 20s is still 20s or less (this i have checked manually, -T 30 is around 30s, so -T can be set more than 20) people complained about gtp4zen might not allow zen6 or zen7 to reach their max strength due to it's argument setting.
Just tested Zen6 30s vs. LZ 30s, LZ won. zen6 looks like no match to LZ.

[kyotosato]

I kept purchasing second hand computers these last 10 years, a sort of ecological activism (I don't play games, except Go, and I use Linux, so no need of modern computer). So I am interested in strong bots that can run on slow computer.
Now, with all those strong bots available, and also because it would help me develop GRP, I am considering purchasing a recent/powerful computer

I have the same experience as you do, i never play games not even chess except go. but 10 yrs earlier than you did; except i do not buy 2nd hand pc's. i use linux since its inception or even before its inception (redhat.) A lot of people discussed about porting these AI go to linux (i use usb-stick linux, so i could use one pc for two OS's.)

[kyotosato]

i just experienced LZ still has a ladder problem. weight file is the latest, dated 4/12 or 4/13.