Life In 19x19

[/quote]
PS I was talking to T Mark today about the question of telling pro play from amateur play, which he's good at, on the basis of haengma. I told him I had already mentioned the 3-D aspect of shapes which is stronger in pro play (I believe). He agreed but put more emphasis on what he called "sequences". Pros play complete sequences, amateurs don't. I'm sure he is just stressing the flow/development aspect of suji/haengma, which is natural for a strong player. (I have asked him to consider posting his own views BTW.)[/quote]

I remember, vaguely, that someone was asked to define jazz, and the reply was something like if you need to define it, you don't know what it is. Many years ago (1987 to be precise) I wandered into the computer room at the European Congress in Grenoble. Anders Kierulf was displaying the replay of professional games on a computer and I looked at a game on screen and commented that it was an old, classical game. Anders became very interested in how, after looking at a position for no more than 1 or 2 seconds, I had been able to recognise the style of play. This was several years before I started recording games for GoGoD, so I only was relying on my previous over-the-board study. I had no idea; I could just recognise that shape is old, that is new and that is a messy amateur game. How do you recognise a familiar face in a crowd of strangers? You just do!

Best wishes.

So what you are saying TMark is that we should all buy GoGoD, sit down and work our way through all the games therein.
OK guys n gals, I guess I'll see you all in a decade...

Actually, for study purposes, the professionals recommend studying lots of... tsumego! The reason is to get you to practice your reading, which is the weakest part of the amateurs' skills. Not that we don't include a collection of problems and a program to view them on the disk, but playing through games is recommended by fewer pros. It is something that I like to do and I have fun compiling the best pro database in the West. There is a certain stage in your study where it is also helpful to play through games and that is where we come in.

Best wishes.

John Fairbairn wrote:

Haengma is hiraki in Japanese

No it isn't.

Well then, John, what's the difference?

Here are some examples of hiraki;

nobi, kosumi, ikken tobi, nikken tobi, keima, ogeima, yongen takabiraki (and so forth)

You may note in your wisdom that these are all examples of haengma. I'm sure you are familiar with all the classic examples as mentioned above.

you should probably be a little less confrontational and explain yourself; I've read "this is haengma" and a number of other books on the subject. Hiraki is haengma. Although, according to Kim Sung-Rae haengma is mainly involved in jumping up into the center; hiraki is usually considered as a movement along the side, but it is essentially the same thing, the study of how the stones move. If that is what you meant then you should probably have clarified that haengma is a subset of hiraki The way you said it makes it sound like you think haengma and hiraki are different subjects.

-

you should probably be a little less confrontational and explain yourself;

How ineffably rude you are. I have spent many paragraphs above explaining the concept and you come in with a one-liner ignorantly contradicting me (and others) and telling me I'm the one who's confrontational. All I'm doing is issuing a swift correction for the benefit of others who may be misled. These mistakes sometimes end up on SL. I don't owe you any tuition in Japanese, nor do I owe you my time.

However, since I am not as rude as you I will quote the definition of hiraki for you from a Japanese go dictionary (and can quote likewise from several more).

３線または４線で自分の石から横に二間ないし五間の間隔で打つ手。一間及び六間以上に普通ヒラキとはいわない。

Since you clearly do not know Japanese I will even translate it for you. A move played sideways from your own stones on the the third of fourth line at a distance of two to five spaces. If the distance is one space or six or more it is not usual to call it hiraki.

Furthermore, I am only familiar with nikken tobi as another common mistake.

Chew Terr wrote:

Kirby wrote:Another thing I find useful in understanding haengma is to look at different haengma problems.

From where?

I have some secret sources

But here are some examples (black to play):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. . O . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. O . . . X . . .
$$|. . O , . 1 . . .
$$|. O X X X O . . .
$$|O X X . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$+-------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. . X . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . 1 . . .
$$|. . . , . . . X .
$$|. . X . . O . X .
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$+-------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1
$$|. . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . O . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . X 1 .
$$|. . O , X . . . O ,
$$|. . . O X . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . O . . . . .
$$|. . O . . . . . .
$$|. . . , 1 . . . .
$$|. . X X . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$+-------------------[/go]

usagi wrote:....

you should probably be a little less confrontational and explain yourself; I've read "this is haengma" and a number of other books on the subject. Hiraki is haengma. ...
-

Hiraki might be a type of haengma on certain board positions, but haengma can be a move that is not hiraki. And sometimes hiraki might not be haengma.

Hiraki is like a move that you've got in your ammo that you could potentially select. Haengma considers all the ammo that you've got and finds the best, most elegant way of playing. This may or may not involve the selection of a move that's considered "hiraki".

That's my understanding, anyway.

John Fairbairn wrote:

you should probably be a little less confrontational and explain yourself;

How ineffably rude you are.

I'm sorry if you feel offended, but I felt somewhat offended that you were so curt in correcting me.

John Fairbairn wrote:I have spent many paragraphs above explaining the concept and you come in with a one-liner ignorantly contradicting me (and others) and telling me I'm the one who's confrontational.

All I'm doing is issuing a swift correction for the benefit of others who may be misled. These mistakes sometimes end up on SL. I don't owe you any tuition in Japanese, nor do I owe you my time.

You are implying I said you were being confrontational in my message where I said haengma was hiraki in japanese. Well, let's move past that (I claimed you were confrontational in your one-liner). I'll apologize if you thought I was making a direct translation -- I wasn't, and I think I made that abundantly clear in my last example where I gave examples of haengma (and hiraki) such as keima.

John Fairbairn wrote:However, since I am not as rude as you I will quote the definition of hiraki for you from a Japanese go dictionary (and can quote likewise from several more).

３線または４線で自分の石から横に二間ないし五間の間隔で打つ手。一間及び六間以上に普通ヒラキとはいわない。

Since you clearly do not know Japanese...

No, I don't, so don't tell me that you're not rude then quote Japanese to me.

Let's take a quick break and go back to your previous post where you had, and I quote, "spent many paragraphs above explaining the concept":

John Fairbairn wrote:There is another way. Haengma. In this tradition, you worry about your own moves. You take the view that if your own moves work together perfectly, you don't have to worry about the opponent. He will either make perfect moves, too, in which case you were never likely to beat him anyway, but at least you'll got a draw. Or he will make bad moves. Since bad moves punish themselves (e.g. by becoming overconcentrated or short of liberties) you will win by having better percentages plays (boring isn't it? Unless you like winning, of course).

In this paragraph you seem to be saying that Haengma is the idea of worrying about your own moves. Now, I am not implying that is what you meant. But it was definately confusing for me to read this; I kept thinking "what? What is he talking about?, that's not haengma". Then I read this part:

John Fairbairn wrote:Haengma differs from the usual good shape concept(katachi) that is a perennial favourite with western amateurs until they become disillusioned with it. They become disillusioned because they treat it as a static concept - making pretty shapes such as the table or avoiding bad shapes such as empty triangles. Because suji (flow) has not been covered well in English, they have not added this dynamic element. Haengma is really just katachi + suji. But it comes from a one-stop shop, and so is more attractive to some for that reason. But the presentations of haengma in English seem, on the whole, to be rather fuzzy, and in particular don't identify the two components of shape and flow all that well. They seem to concentrate on the flow aspect, which is possibly because of awareness of the underlying meaning of haeng (moving).

If you want to learn haengma, what you are being taught is "how do I think about developing my stones?" This is fairly advanced.

This somewhat gels with what I think haengma is; i.e. moving groups of stones (haengma, which of course means moving horse, implies that it is how groups move). However, you (above) seem to be implying that Haengma has something to do with katachi (shape), which it does not - the idea of shape is separate from the idea of the possibility of making a shape. Of course we do not totally forget our ideas of shape when we consider various moves, of course playing a "proper" haengma would normally lead to good shape - as that would be a concern when playing the haengma. Actually it seems that in this definition you are agreeing with me that haengma is hiraki. Making a proper hiraki is "really just katachi + suji" -- that is a truth. Let's go back to your previous post and see your definition of hiraki from the dictionary:

John Fairbairn wrote:I will even translate it for you. A move played sideways from your own stones on the the third of fourth line at a distance of two to five spaces. If the distance is one space or six or more it is not usual to call it hiraki.

Furthermore, I am only familiar with nikken tobi as another common mistake.

Okay, a move played sideways from your own stones on the third or fourth line at a distance of two to five spaces. So we see ikken tobi, nikken tobi, and sangen biraki (hiraki) -- because, this move of three spaces is a hiraki but nikken tobi isn't. Actually with your explanation above (about katachi and suji) and then (from the dictionary no less) I don't wonder at all why you can't see the connection between haengma and hiraki.

Look. I think we've gotten off on the wrong foot here. I think you assumed I was making a translation from korean to japanese and that you didn't see the obvious connection between the two terms and what they really mean. According to several korean pros (who literally wrote the books on Haengma), Haengma is the same basic thing as what I know to be hiraki. Hiraki means extension. I think it is pretty obvious that the study of hiraki is essentially the same as the study of haengma. There are standard tesujis studied on both sides of the fence. We can't always rely on the dictionary either - to claim that a four space extension from a three stone wall is hiraki is clearly false. I was basically approaching the subject from that standpoint. As you said yourself it's obvious I don't know Japanese (or Korean) -- so let's go from there.

The definition of Haengma (not related to what I know or don't know about hiraki) I have is from "This is Haengma" by Kim Sung-Rae 4p (translated by Diana Koszegi 1p -- Haengma involves a move towards the center, not a contact or fighting move or one played merely as a hiraki (extension).

So in that hiraki is usually a move along the sides and haengma is usually a move played into the center, I feel the study of the moves themselves is surprisingly similar, even though the usual place the moves are played is different.

Anyways, here are four examples white's responses to a pincer; according to Kim Sung-Rae

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 7 . 8 . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . 3 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

According to him, white 4 and 8 are haengma, White 12 and 16 are not. Although I would consider 16 a hiraki style move as it is an "extension", I guess that's just my personal idea on the word that isn't really accepted? I guess I just thought it fell into the general category of "extensions".


Anyways you're right you don't really owe me anything, but I think that if what I've said here doesn't explain what I meant when I said haengma is hiraki in Japanese, then I think I should say "the study of haengma is just like the study of hiraki". Could we agree on that? Anyways, have a nice day..

-

@usagi,

While reading your post, one thought kept returning to my mind: When you are in a hole, stop digging.

First, you offer a conditional apology:

usagi wrote:I'll apologize if you thought I was making a direct translation -- I wasn't, and I think I made that abundantly clear in my last example where I gave examples of haengma (and hiraki) such as keima.

So... when you said "haengma is hiraki in Japanese" you really meant....what? That some moves could fall into either category? Not exactly an intuitive interpretation. Later, you try again to patch things up, but again, you're digging in the wrong direction:

usagi wrote:Look. I think we've gotten off on the wrong foot here. I think you assumed I was making a translation from korean to japanese and that you didn't see the obvious connection between the two terms and what they really mean. According to several korean pros (who literally wrote the books on Haengma), Haengma is the same basic thing as what I know to be hiraki.

Really? This is how you plan to get back on the right foot? By claiming that John didn't see the obvious connections between the two terms? And that they really mean...what? The same thing? That's what Korean pros who wrote the books on haengma say? Which Korean pros? What exactly did they say? In what context? Here you seem to be sticking with your argument that John was wrong to contradict you.

In the course of your post however, you seem to change your mind, and write:

usagi wrote:So in that hiraki is usually a move along the sides and haengma is usually a move played into the center, I feel the study of the moves themselves is surprisingly similar, even though the usual place the moves are played is different.

Well, is it the same thing or not? Whether the study of the two is "surprisingly similar" as you say, or indeed warranting of different names is at the heart of the matter. If you were to say that dogs and wolves are surprisingly similar and thus we can call them both dogs, not only John would object.

If your conclusion, "the study of haengma is just like the study of hiraki". is correct, then it doesn't make sense that the Koreans would have invented the concept of haengma. Even the quoted definintion you present: "Haengma involves a move towards the center, not a contact or fighting move or one played merely as a hiraki (extension)" -Kim Sung-Rae, explicitly contradicts your conclusion.

Perhaps a sentence such as this might better serve to ease the tensions and bring the discussion back on track:

"Can we agree that haengma and hikari share some characteristics, and that the differences lie in ____________?"

Making a proper hiraki is "really just katachi + suji" -- that is a truth.

No, it isn't. I'll take a very deep breath and try again. A hiraki is a very, very, very specific type of extension. It is a technical term. No Japanese calls a nobi, a kosumi or a tobi a hiraki. The former are tactical moves that can be used anywhere, a hiraki looks very different, is bigger in scale and is only used of a fuseki move (which may not be in the opening, of course: fuseki does not mean opening). Even a move that looks like a hiraki in the fuseki might actually be a tsume. It is unfortunate that, with the way translation of go books has occurred in higgledy-piggedly fashion, a hiraki is usually called an extension and some people (myself included) also used extend for nobu. But, as far as I know, no-one has ever used extend for tobi, kosumi, keima or anything else. If you had said "haengma is all about extending" you would have been on reasonably safe ground if you were further to claim you were using "extending" purely in an ordinary English sense, otherwise you'd risk confusing people who might think you mean hiraki. But you cannot translate that sentence into Japanese as "haengma to wa 'hiraki' desu."

Nam Chi-hyeong gave the following definition in English:

"In go every move is a 'placement', so the evaluation of a move is based on each placement and, only after the concept of 'shape' is introduced, does it become possible to estimate the value of a move in the context of their relationships among different placements. But, the concept of shape allows only a static understanding. With the concept of 'haengma,' moves can be understood as something dynamic."

Here you see the recognition that the components are katachi (shape) and suji (dynamic flow).

The aspect of go that haengma covers is therefore arguably covered in Japanese. The Koreans like to boast that they discovered haengma, though, and if you look carefully you can see there is some justification. Indeed you can make a case that it has formed their free-flowing way of playing go. Although suji has a dynamic feel to it, it is nowhere near as explicit as the haeng in haengma, and the term is not used as much (except as part of tesuji, where the dynamic element is reduced merely to implying there is a sequence involved).

If you look at a book such as the Modern Haengma Dictionary (in Korean) you will see that it outlines what it calls basic haengma. You could list them with Japanese terms: kosumi, keima, ikken tobi, nobi, ogeima and niken tobi. However, that would be misleading, especially in the case of nobi. The Korean term ssang-jeom haeng-ma covers what the Japanese call nobi, sagari, burasagari, tetchuu, tsuppari, shimari and others. Han-kan haengma covers likewise one-space moves that the Japanese do not call ikken tobi or anything else. Conversely, though, none of the Korean terms covers the Japanese hiraki.

So what the Koreans have done is to distill a multiplicity of shape moves into portmanteau categories which allows them to concentrate on the shared dynamics of that category rather than the shapes. Therein lies their contribution.

Now when looking at dynamics, that is how groups flow or develop, the centre is usually a large open area and so much of this activity naturally takes places there. But it would be a bad mistake to think of haengma as being about the centre. Even a quiet shimari move can be haengma.

The above relates to basic haengma, and at this level you are almost entirely concerned with getting the proper shape + development for your own stones. That is a fine foundation. But there is also more advanced haengma. A problem with some books I have seen is that they do not differentiate the basic and advanced forms, but the essential difference is that in the advanced form you start concerning yourself more with the opponent's stones. Indeed, for this Korean uses terms like jeob-geun-jeon-ui haeng-ma (or haengma for contact fights) and sil-jeon eung-yong haeng-ma (haengma as applied to actual games). A specific example of this kind of haengma would be a shoulder hit.

If you know certain Oriental martial arts you will recognise the teaching technique. You study on your own to learn the kata or forms. Once you've mastered these by constant reptition, you will be allowed to practise two-person moves. Eventually you will be allowed to learn "applications" and eventually you will be ready for "combat". If you are gifted enough to go beyond that, you will learn that the best way to win a fight is not to fight. You come full circle and learn that you only need to attend to your own moves. If an opponent attacks, you don't grapple with him. You go with the flow and let bad moves punish themselves. This is the sort of tradition I referred to.

I don't wonder at all why you can't see the connection between haengma and hiraki.

There is none. They do not share any obvious characteristics.

We can't always rely on the dictionary either - to claim that a four space extension from a three stone wall is hiraki is clearly false. I was basically approaching the subject from that standpoint. As you said yourself it's obvious I don't know Japanese (or Korean) -- so let's go from there.

It would be a hiraki. I am totally baffled as to how you can be so assertive about the meaning of Japanese and Korean words and admit in the same paragraph you know neither language.

"Haengma involves a move towards the center, not a contact or fighting move or one played merely as a hiraki (extension)" -Kim Sung-Rae,

usagi: daal's post was after mine. I now see this quotation presented by him. It looks like a bad translation has misled you, which makes me a little less baffled. I haven't got the original to check, but I think you can take it for granted that the Korean original did not use the Japanese word. That just doesn't happen.

This is one of the problems with cleaving to Japanese terms like hane, aji, tesuji. It's understandable, but when it comes to translating a book from Korean or Chinese, using the Anglo-Japanese terms for this does lead to mistakes and misunderstandings. Even the use of pure English "placement" in Nam's definition can be misleading. Some readers may think she means "oki". Again, I don't know exactly what she said in Korean, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't just non-technical noh-da (to put or to place) or chak-su. (For technical oki, Koreans use several different terms according to circumstance.)

I don't think the quote is a sound definition even in Korean (cf the better Nam one), which makes it twice as misleading. It should explain it refers only to basic haengma and that while access to the centre is nearly always a consideration, the actual move can be away from the centre. In the shape with black stones on D4 and C7 and white on F3, a Black move at D3 (as opposed to E3) is good haengma. The reason is partly to do with the later dynamic development of the Black shape at E7.

Incidentally, Black D3 is called shimari in Japanese but is just a ssang-jeom haeng-ma to a Korean haengmatist. A player who plays D3 in Japan might be said to have good suji (ii suji), sometimes rendered as good style, but I would wager that an average westerner reading that would focus on that move and, especially if he was told it was a shimari, on the territory in the corner. The Korean who is taught haengma, however, learns to focus on the group (or shape) as a whole and sees a follow-up E7 as a way of having access to the centre as well as defending the corner from certain invasions (defences which you have to learn separately, of course). The good shape element comes in when you consider that E3 leaves a weakness at C3.

John Fairbairn wrote:

Making a proper hiraki is "really just katachi + suji" -- that is a truth.

No, it isn't. I'll take a very deep breath and try again. A hiraki is a very, very, very specific type of extension. It is a technical term. No Japanese calls a nobi, a kosumi or a tobi a hiraki. The former are tactical moves that can be used anywhere, a hiraki looks very different, is bigger in scale and is only used of a fuseki move (which may not be in the opening, of course: fuseki does not mean opening). Even a move that looks like a hiraki in the fuseki might actually be a tsume. It is unfortunate that, with the way translation of go books has occurred in higgledy-piggedly fashion, a hiraki is usually called an extension and some people (myself included) also used extend for nobu. But, as far as I know, no-one has ever used extend for tobi, kosumi, keima or anything else. If you had said "haengma is all about extending" you would have been on reasonably safe ground if you were further to claim you were using "extending" purely in an ordinary English sense, otherwise you'd risk confusing people who might think you mean hiraki. But you cannot translate that sentence into Japanese as "haengma to wa 'hiraki' desu."

I suppose that's the danger of using technical terms you don't properly understand from languages you don't speak.

Thanks, I learned some important things today, and not just about go in particular! I'd like to apologize once more, I was under the impression that hiraki meant any sort of extension because I had read some materials from the "hiraki foundation" and possibly misunderstood it from that (not that the hiraki foundation is at fault, I'm saying I had an incomplete or sketchy knowledge of the word due to not really having a lot of experience with how it was used before I started using it myself).

-

usagi wrote:....

According to him, white 4 and 8 are haengma, White 12 and 16 are not...

Is 8 hiraki? There you go...

@Usagi: Thanks for settling the disagreement. As both a moderator and an observer, I was worried that it might blot out a very interesting discussion.

Does anyone know where the book "Modern Haengma Dictionary" can be purchased (I'm in the U.S.)? I didn't see it in any of my normal haunts.