Life In 19x19

deja wrote:...This is just my opinion but I feel strongly that my beliefs about Richard Nixon, Minnesotans, Republicans, and Cocker Spaniels are unassailable.
...

Again, you can think this. I cannot tell with certain if your decision process is rational.

I may not agree with you, however.

Gu Li got a second chance and beat our favorite amateur Min today.

Otherwise I'm (again) flabbergasted by the deterioration of this discussion chain.

Cheers,
Vesa

More about Min vs Hane game:
http://9-dan.com/?id=2&cup_id=4&new_id=57
I added some notes in fuseki

Fun facts: 50% of the women made it to the 2nd tournament, as did 50% of the men. (Yay for small numbers). The Japanese player who deserved his spot didn't make the 2nd tournament, while one who didn't deserve it did make it through.

As for the old folks, I got nothing. They're awful.

*tongue firmly in cheek for this, and only this, post*

Your global scepticism is an interesting position Kirby, but why doesn't it extend to doubting whether I actually said that Magicwand was unreasonable? I mean...we could just have different data about what I said.

You may think I'm being snarky, but I'm having a hard time distinguishing your position from saying "nothing can ever be known, therefore we should never say anything." And saying you're only talking about what is reasonable, not what we should agree with doesn't help. In general, unless certain inferences are reasonable, and others aren't, there is no point in discussion. Otherwise, when I say "if p then q, and p, but not q" you can't jump in and say "that's unreasonable."

In this case, Magicwand and I have roughly the same data: we have tournament records aplenty--if one of us doesn't know the relevant results, it's our own responsibility for not having looked them up. It's not like Cho U had a 20 game losing streak that I'm ignorant of but Magicwand knows about (or vice versa).

hyperpape wrote:...

Mainly, I'm just commenting on this part that you said:

these views aren't always based on much of anything in particular.

Because you cannot really know what his views are based upon.

And sure, it may be the case that one or both of you aren't taking the full picture into account. But your views are both formed by the information that you have taken into account, which is available to you.

hyperpape wrote:In this case, Magicwand and I have roughly the same data...

This is not necessarily the case. Opinions can be formed from things other than games, too. It could be that a person has negative views toward Japanese people in general due to other factors. This is what I was saying about the rough history that has happened between Japan and other Asian countries. I don't want to speak for Magicwand, because I don't know his situation.

However, a person's feeling about Japanese people could extend to issues outside of go - and that doesn't mean that the views are "not based on anything in particular".

Also, a person with such views may also not be taking the full picture into account, but they surely came up with their opinion for some reason.

breakfast wrote:More about Min vs Hane game:
http://9-dan.com/?id=2&cup_id=4&new_id=57
I added some notes in fuseki

thank you for your comment on the game.
so basically it was a bad game for hane and Min capitalizing on is mistake.
still impressive for an amature.

hyperpape wrote:...In general, unless certain inferences are reasonable, and others aren't, there is no point in discussion. Otherwise, when I say "if p then q, and p, but not q" you can't jump in and say "that's unreasonable."
...

I think you can think of it if somebody only says "q", without saying their stance on "p". If the statement "if p then q" is a logical conclusion, and somebody doesn't say anything about "p" and simply says "q", it's hard to know if "q" is true without knowing their stance on "p".

So if they just say "q", and you know that "if p then q" and "if not p then not q" are both true, you could jump in and say, "I don't think that q is true, because of not p".

But maybe they don't agree with "not p" because of some other factor, and really think that "p".

So basically, it could be that you are both being logical, but your underlying premises are different. It is hard to know with any certainty whether somebody is being illogical, or if their premises are simply different than yours.

we are getting further and further from the "Open Samsung Thread", but i don't mind

Kirby: aren't hyperpape's and at first HermanHiddema's opinions on Magicwand just as reasonable (or reasoned...?) as Magicwand's opinions on pretty much everything?

it is not that i wouldn't like magicwand, i usually enjoy his posts (although i often cannot agree with them )

breakfast wrote:More about Min vs Hane game:
http://9-dan.com/?id=2&cup_id=4&new_id=57
I added some notes in fuseki

As Magicwand said, thank you for posting this. It serves as a good reminder of the risks of making weak groups when you already have weak groups nearby. I need to work on remembering that, anyways.

Laman wrote:...

Kirby: aren't hyperpape's and at first HermanHiddema's opinions on Magicwand just as reasonable (or reasoned...?) as Magicwand's opinions on pretty much everything?

...

I am not saying whether or not Magicwand's opinions are reasonable (at least I'm not trying to). I am saying that he may have a rational basis for achieving them. Herman and hyperpape's opinions about MW may have a rational basis as well, but I want to provide additional information about the situation: Namely, even factors outside of go can affect someone's opinion, and it's impossible to know what premises are being considered.

Helel wrote:

Kirby wrote:I am not saying whether or not Magicwand's opinions are reasonable (at least I'm not trying to). I am saying that he may have a rational basis for achieving them. Herman and hyperpape's opinions about MW may have a rational basis as well, but I want to provide additional information about the situation: Namely, even factors outside of go can affect someone's opinion, and it's impossible to know what premises are being considered.

As someone who has somewhat different premises from most people I appreciate your view Kirby, but I hope you realize that what people here consider a rational basis, must be based solely on the game itself.

It is really totally irrelevant if the Nihon Ki-in has devoted a large part of their budget to terrorize Magicwand, and Cho U personally been mean to his children.
Even if it were true that the Japanese are more evil, stupid and degenerate than any other people, and the Koreans were the most intelligent, honorable and kind people on earth, this still would be irrelevant.

Well, that's true, but the point still holds for game data, as well. Maybe Magicwand has seen a set of games which lead to a conclusion that Japanese players typically perform poorly.

And maybe another person has seen a different set of games, which lead to a different conclusion.

You don't know what data someone is taken into account, whether it's about the game or not, so you can't tell if their decision is a rational one.

Helel wrote:

Kirby wrote:You don't know what data someone is taken into account, whether it's about the game or not, so you can't tell if their decision is a rational one.

Well based on what data I've seen many suspect Magicwand of being slightly prejudiced. How illogical of them.

Not to hurt Magicwands fragile ego, I hasten to assure him that he has many other fine qualities that make up for it.

Yes. I am being a bit contradictory when I say:
1.) I will try to accept the view of another person, even if I don't understand them.
2.) I will not accept non-acceptance (eg. simply calling someone prejudice without trying to understand them).

I think that you're right. This is a bit of a contradiction. However, I can consider the costs that I pay with the different options that I have.

1.) If I do not accept another person's (possibly irrational) views on a topic, it is possible that I am wrong. If I am wrong, the person may actually be acting rational, and I may have stuff that I could otherwise learn about that particular topic from them.

2.) If I do not accept someone's view that another person is prejudice, what does it cost me? At most, I am wrong, and the person was correct that that person was prejudice. I missed out on learning that "this person is prejudice".

I am more interested in learning and understanding people's viewpoints on a variety of topics, rather than missing out on the potential fact that someone might actually be prejudice.

everyone have prejudice in them.
i certainly do too.
but i do not discriminate.

edit: and my ego is not FRAGILE!!!

Kirby wrote:Because you cannot really know what his views are based upon.

While generally speaking there might be some truth to that, I think in this particular situation what you say does not quite apply.

When I see a poster making repeated comments of a controversial flavor, without giving any factual justification for his views, in spite of whole heated discussions developing about what he said - it seems reasonable to assume that he does not have any factual justification or he would have given it, He tries to give some justification, but these are very unconvincing, at least to me (and to others as well, it seems) - so I assume if he had better ones he would have shared them.

In addition, combined with his remarks about whom he considers a 'Korean' from another thread, and some other stuff he said, it is easy to draw a picture of a person who dislikes certain groups because of his upbringing and personal attitude rather than any objective factors. And this is based on his words and only that - which is all we have to judge each other by, in most cases.

And this is pretty much the opinion I have about him too.
What differentiates him from the usual group of of racist bigots is that he is up-front and honest about it. Also, he is aware of his views and their connotations, which is really respectable, in my eyes. Overall, we cannot be all the same, but as long as you are aware of your position and its shortcomings, and don't try to impose it on others too much, its not bad.