Fuseki Schmuseki #1

[Chew Terr]

Before: Chew Terr 3d 2k 9d/pro 6k 12k 20k 15k 2d
After: Chew Terr 3d 2k 9d/pro 1k 1d 20k 15k 2d

[judicata]

For reference, my guesses from the first round:

1. 2 dan. The diagonal fuseki makes this look a little odd, and jumping right into the corner at 9 seems a little early to me, though it IS a large knight's response. I'm pretty sure black can safely tenuki from the lower right, though I imagine he'd still like sente to come back. All in all, nothing too off-base here.

2. 16 kyu. (Watch, this will turn out to be a pro game). From my unscientific observation, I don't see DDks open with 3-3 often--usually I see it from people who are experimenting. But, 7 is weird. I don't see black getting securable influence out of it. Also, I would think a 12kyuish player would habitually enclose the 3-4 before approaching (though this isn't saying the approach is wrong).

3. 5 dan. Why, you ask? White 6 is obviously weird but, for some reason, White 8 and 10 seem to reflect an deep experimental strategy. I haven't read it out, obviously, but I'm going with my gut on this. So, 5 dan it is.

4. 4 kyu. Again, a bit of an odd fuseki, but it has some principled basis, I think. White's approach seems reasonable on some level, but the upper left might become urgent afterwards.

5. 3 dan. I couldn't decide between 12 kyu and 3 dan. . Through these moves, black shows an enormous moyo strategy. Black 5 and White 6 are odd, but not unplayable. Black 7 is what tells me "12 kyu," and the non-pincer at 9 might tell me the same. Low confidence about this one.

6. 16 kyu. Black 5 is weird, but whatever. White 6, though... I just can't imagine the reasoning for this, and the moves through 10 seem to fight over 7 points in the opening.

7. 5 kyu. I think I understand the thought behind black 9 -- Black doesn't want to be one-space-low-pincered with the small knight's move approach, so black chooses this one-perhaps thinking white might defend the corner. But, I dunno.

8. 5 dan. Why? because it seems intentionally random, as if there is an express or implied agreement not to play fuseki/joseki moves. At the same time, both players are in playable positions.

And second round thoughts:

1. Same (2 dan). The continuation doesn't really change anything for me.

2. Same. (16kyu) I don't have any additional comments. Nothing is dying yet, but this still looks goofy.

3. Same (5d), but I could revise to pro. I doubt I could tell the difference between an amateur 5dan and a pro anyway. (I'm not saying there aren't differences, of course there is a HUGE difference, but it is nearly imperceptible at my level).

4. Same (4 kyu).

5. Same I guess (3 dan). I'm still conflicted about this one, but definitely not a DDK.


6. Same (16 kyu). I would base this on 6-14 alone.

7. Same (5 kyu). I don't think any stronger. Now that I look at it, I think black 7 is a mistake; not an aweful move, but I think Q14 is better for getting some territory on the left side in this situation (assuming that is what black is trying to do). If there was already a white stone around R 9, I'd think differently.

8. Same (5 dan). Funky game, but I think both of these players are stronger than me. Of course, even an SDK could play out these moves so far, but I still think 5 dan.

[daniel_the_smith]

1. 4k-3d
2. 12k-6k
3. 1d-9d really weird, but seems ok for both...
4. 7k-2d
5. 9k-1k
6. 25k-13k I'm certain this is a ddk game, more certain about this one than any of the others.
7. 10k-5k
8. 1d-5d

EDIT: those of you who did not change your guesses: O.o

[topazg]

Will post the next ten moves tomorrow, as I think up to 30 is useful, and will announce the results next weekend

EDIT: Bah humbug, wedding plans took priority, but this won't be forgotten!

[PYves]

I had only looked at the first 10 moves, updated rating added in brackets, after reading the whole thread...

#1: 1kyu? (1-dan after 20) hard to say so far it's only standard moves, but white is at least consistant in all his stones aiming for influence.

#2: 6 kyu (2kyu after 20) black plays an uncommon move and white answers a bit passively. the 3-3 leads me to think it could be someone stronger as I rarely see 3-3 by anyone (much less weaker than 5 kyu)

#3: 1dan (4dan after 20) - overly complicated for white. handles himself nicely

#4: 3 kyu. (3kyu after 20) Could be any rank, but I can imagine pros cringing at having to play p14 and pushing black along the 4th line.

#5: 4dan (4dan after 20) - seems pretty balanced,

#6: 15k (20 kyu after 20). playing on the 2nd line in the fuseki is not a good idea. first line even worse.

#7: 2dan (1kyu after 20) - nothing strange, L16 seems like a weird shape.

#8: 6dan (6 dan after 20)- double 6-4, strange fuseki.

[topazg]

Here's the third and final installment

Game #1

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[dp]
;W[po]
;B[pq]
;W[mp]
;B[fc]
;W[cg]
;B[cc]
;W[dc]
;B[cd]
;W[de]
;B[db]
;W[eb]
;B[cb]
;W[ec]
;B[ce]
;W[cf]
;B[fb]
;W[fd]
;B[gd]
;W[fe]
;B[hc]
;W[cn]
;B[fp]
;W[fm]
;B[ea]
;W[ge]
;B[he]
;W[hf])[/sgf-full]

Game #2

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[pd]
;W[cq]
;B[pp]
;W[dc]
;B[nc]
;W[qn]
;B[on]
;W[rp]
;B[qq]
;W[qk]
;B[lp]
;W[iq]
;B[fq]
;W[kr]
;B[lr]
;W[io]
;B[fo]
;W[do]
;B[hr]
;W[ir]
;B[hq]
;W[hp]
;B[gp]
;W[gn]
;B[en]
;W[dn]
;B[em]
;W[fn]
;B[eo]
;W[ln])[/sgf-full]

Game #3

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[qp]
;W[dp]
;B[oq]
;W[np]
;B[nq]
;W[qf]
;B[nd]
;W[qo]
;B[po]
;W[pn]
;B[pp]
;W[qi]
;B[qe]
;W[pf]
;B[qk]
;W[on]
;B[pl]
;W[qm]
;B[nl]
;W[mn]
;B[mg]
;W[nj]
;B[ll]
;W[lj]
;B[kn]
;W[mq]
;B[mi]
;W[mj])[/sgf-full]

Game #4

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[qd]
;W[pp]
;B[de]
;W[co]
;B[jc]
;W[oc]
;B[md]
;W[oe]
;B[pf]
;W[of]
;B[pg]
;W[qb]
;B[qn]
;W[ql]
;B[qj]
;W[pn]
;B[po]
;W[oo]
;B[qo]
;W[pm]
;B[qp]
;W[pq]
;B[qq]
;W[qr]
;B[rr]
;W[pr]
;B[rs]
;W[rm]
;B[rn]
;W[qm])[/sgf-full]

Game #5

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[cp]
;B[fp]
;W[dn]
;B[kp]
;W[qn]
;B[qj]
;W[pp]
;B[qp]
;W[qq]
;B[rq]
;W[qr]
;B[po]
;W[op]
;B[qo]
;W[nq]
;B[rr]
;W[pr]
;B[pn]
;W[no]
;B[dj]
;W[dq]
;B[cf]
;W[fc]
;B[mr]
;W[lq]
;B[mq]
;W[lp])[/sgf-full]

Game #6

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[pd]
;W[dp]
;B[pp]
;W[ed]
;B[df]
;W[mq]
;B[nq]
;W[nr]
;B[or]
;W[mr]
;B[oq]
;W[os]
;B[ps]
;W[ns]
;B[qr]
;W[pg]
;B[qf]
;W[pf]
;B[oe]
;W[qe]
;B[rd]
;W[pe]
;B[re]
;W[rf]
;B[qg]
;W[rg]
;B[qh]
;W[pi]
;B[ph]
;W[oh])[/sgf-full]

Game #7

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[qd]
;W[dd]
;B[dq]
;W[pp]
;B[dn]
;W[od]
;B[qg]
;W[kd]
;B[gc]
;W[ic]
;B[db]
;W[df]
;B[dc]
;W[cc]
;B[cb]
;W[bc]
;B[bb]
;W[ed]
;B[hc]
;W[ib]
;B[he]
;W[qc]
;B[rc]
;W[pc]
;B[rb]
;W[pf]
;B[qf]
;W[mp]
;B[cj]
;W[ch])[/sgf-full]

Game #8

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[nd]
;W[dc]
;B[np]
;W[dq]
;B[dj]
;W[qp]
;B[qq]
;W[rq]
;B[pq]
;W[ro]
;B[de]
;W[ce]
;B[cf]
;W[cd]
;B[df]
;W[fc]
;B[do]
;W[co]
;B[cn]
;W[cp]
;B[dn]
;W[fq]
;B[pj]
;W[lq]
;B[pp]
;W[po]
;B[oo]
;W[pn]
;B[on]
;W[ql])[/sgf-full]

[topazg]

And current guesses:

Code: Select all

Player       game 1   game 2   game 3   game 4   game 5   game 6   game 7   game 8
dfan         3d       10k      12k      4d       2k       15k      5k       3d
zinger       -        -        9d/pro   -        -        -        -        -
Shaddy       -        -        9d/pro   -        -        -        -        -
Kirby        -        5d       -        -        -        -        -        -
tj86430      1d       9k       6k       2k       3d       7k       4k       5d
judicata     2d       16k      5d       4k       3d       16k      5k       5d
daniel_ts    4k-3d    12-6k    1-9d     7k-2d    9k-1k    25k-13k  10k-5k   1k-5d
Harleqin     3d       6k       5d       1d       3k       12k      5k       2d
Chew Terr    3d       2k       9d/pro   1k       1d       20k      15k      2d
Araban       2d-5d    14k-9k   6d-9d    8d-4k    8k-4k    14k-9k   8k-4k    3k-1d
hyperpape    -        12k-4k   -        -        10k-19k  -        -        5d-6d
Gresil       10k+     15k      1d+      10k      1d+      20k      4k-1k    1d-6d
wossname     -        -        9d/pro   -        -        -        -        -
Koosh        1-2d     10-12k   9d/pro   4-5d     9d/pro   15-20k   10-12k   6-7d
Fredrik      3d       7k       9d/pro   5d       9d/pro   20k      9k       6-7d
PYves        1d       2k       4d       3k       4d       20k      1k       6d

Please can people try to be specific for the last round Where the players (black vs white in each) are not the same rank, I will award points to the closest (so 1k vs 1d I would award 7 points for 4d and 7 points for 4k, as they are both 3 stones off _one_ of the players)

[daniel_the_smith]

1. 1d-4d
2. 7k-4k
3. We all know it's a pro game... it's finally starting to look like it
4. 7k-2k I think 24 is bad, can't black cut at P4?
5. 5k-2d M3 was interesting and seems to work.
6. 25k-15k Frighteningly awful
7. 5k-2k
8. 2d-5d

EDIT: Oh ok I'll be specific:

1. 3d
2. 5k
3. 9d We all know it's a pro game... it's finally starting to look like it
4. 3k I think 24 is bad, can't black cut at P4?
5. 2d M3 was interesting and seems to work.
6. 18k Frighteningly awful
7. 2k
8. 3d

[Chew Terr]

First: Chew Terr 3d 2k 9d/pro 6k 12k 20k 15k 2d
Second: Chew Terr 3d 2k 9d/pro 1k 1d 20k 15k 2d
Final: Chew Terr 3d 5k (Deranked for move 28, which seems bad aji-keshi) 9d/pro 6k 8k 20k 13k 2d

This is hard.

[PYves]

not changing my answers.

#1: 1dan. white is at least consistant in all his stones aiming for influence. lacks efficiency in his stones.

#2: 2kyu. black plays an uncommon move and white answers a bit passively. the 3-3 leads me to think it could be someone stronger as I rarely see 3-3 by anyone (much less weaker than 5 kyu)

#3: pro game - overly complicated for white. handles himself nicely

#4: 3 kyu. Could be any rank, but I can imagine most strong players cringing at having to play p14 and pushing black along the 4th line.

#5: 4dan - seems pretty balanced,

#6: 20kyu. playing on the 2nd line in the fuseki is not a good idea. first line even worse.

#7: 1kyu - nothing strange, L16 seems like a weird shape.

#8: 6dan - double 6-4, strange fuseki.

[Harleqin]

I have graded almost all games down now. Except for game 3, I do not think that any of these players are stronger than me.

1: 1 dan
2: 5 kyu
3: (9 dan)
4: 2 kyu
5: 1 dan
6: 12 kyu
7: 5 kyu
8: 2 kyu

[topazg]

I'm posting the results on Sunday night, and I'll take whatever guesses I have then from everyone - so if you want to get in there, that's the deadline

For ranges given, I will take the average (so 1d+ means 5d, and 12k-10k = 11k). If the average is a half grade, I'll round down to the weaker rank. Any boards that haven't got a guess against them will be scored as 0/10.

[judicata]

For reference, my guesses from the first round:

1. 2 dan. The diagonal fuseki makes this look a little odd, and jumping right into the corner at 9 seems a little early to me, though it IS a large knight's response. I'm pretty sure black can safely tenuki from the lower right, though I imagine he'd still like sente to come back. All in all, nothing too off-base here.

2. 16 kyu. (Watch, this will turn out to be a pro game). From my unscientific observation, I don't see DDks open with 3-3 often--usually I see it from people who are experimenting. But, 7 is weird. I don't see black getting securable influence out of it. Also, I would think a 12kyuish player would habitually enclose the 3-4 before approaching (though this isn't saying the approach is wrong).

3. 5 dan. Why, you ask? White 6 is obviously weird but, for some reason, White 8 and 10 seem to reflect an deep experimental strategy. I haven't read it out, obviously, but I'm going with my gut on this. So, 5 dan it is.

4. 4 kyu. Again, a bit of an odd fuseki, but it has some principled basis, I think. White's approach seems reasonable on some level, but the upper left might become urgent afterwards.

5. 3 dan. I couldn't decide between 12 kyu and 3 dan. . Through these moves, black shows an enormous moyo strategy. Black 5 and White 6 are odd, but not unplayable. Black 7 is what tells me "12 kyu," and the non-pincer at 9 might tell me the same. Low confidence about this one.

6. 16 kyu. Black 5 is weird, but whatever. White 6, though... I just can't imagine the reasoning for this, and the moves through 10 seem to fight over 7 points in the opening.

7. 5 kyu. I think I understand the thought behind black 9 -- Black doesn't want to be one-space-low-pincered with the small knight's move approach, so black chooses this one-perhaps thinking white might defend the corner. But, I dunno.

8. 5 dan. Why? because it seems intentionally random, as if there is an express or implied agreement not to play fuseki/joseki moves. At the same time, both players are in playable positions.

Second round:

1. Same (2 dan). The continuation doesn't really change anything for me.

2. Same. (16kyu) I don't have any additional comments. Nothing is dying yet, but this still looks goofy.

3. Same (5d), but I could revise to pro. I doubt I could tell the difference between an amateur 5dan and a pro anyway. (I'm not saying there aren't differences, of course there is a HUGE difference, but it is nearly imperceptible at my level).

4. Same (4 kyu).

5. Same I guess (3 dan). I'm still conflicted about this one, but definitely not a DDK.


6. Same (16 kyu). I would base this on 6-14 alone.

7. Same (5 kyu). I don't think any stronger. Now that I look at it, I think black 7 is a mistake; not an aweful move, but I think Q14 is better for getting some territory on the left side in this situation (assuming that is what black is trying to do). If there was already a white stone around R 9, I'd think differently.

8. Same (5 dan). Funky game, but I think both of these players are stronger than me. Of course, even an SDK could play out these moves so far, but I still think 5 dan.

And final:

No additional comments; not changing my answers

[topazg]

Aaaand, the final results!!

I've removed everyone who guessed under 4 of the games, and averaged any remaining ranges:

Code: Select all

Player       (rank)   game 1   game 2   game 3   game 4   game 5   game 6   game 7   game 8   score
Fredrik      5d       3d       7k       9d/pro   5d       9d/pro   20k      9k       6d       68
Koosh        1d       1d       11k      9d/pro   4d       9d/pro   18k      11k      6d       60
daniel_ts    1d       3d       5k       9d/pro   3k       2d       18k      2k       3d       60
PYves        4d       1d       2k       9d/pro   3k       4d       20k      1k       6d       55
Chew Terr    4k       3d       5k       9d/pro   6k       8k       20k      13k      2d       53
Harleqin     2d       1d       5k       9d/pro   2k       1d       12k      5k       2k       52
judicata     7k       2d       16k      5d       4k       3d       16k      5k       5d       48
Araban       4d       3d       12k      8d       6k       6k       12k      6k       2k       46
dfan         4k       3d       10k      12k      4d       2k       15k      5k       3d       47
tj86430      7k       1d       9k       6k       2k       3d       7k       4k       5d       43
Gresil       6k       10k+     15k      5d       10k      5d       20k      3k       3d       42
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actual                5d       7k/8k    pro      1d       pro      21k/19k  6k       3d/2d

Game 1: cugel20k 5d vs yz221 5d
Game 2: josehugo 7k vs deym 8k
Game 3: Chang Hao 9p vs Wang Lei 6p
Game 4: charley 1d vs lookfar 1d
Game 5: Hu Yaoyu 8p vs Li Zhe 6p
Game 6: Numero8 21k vs izum1 19k
Game 7: sumomo 6k vs sangsu 6k
Game 8: horstmaria 3d vs Cris007 2d

Really interesting to see the views of game 5, and generally interesting to see how accurate some people were. So, any surprises for those reading? Any comments? Would people like game links?

[PYves]

Confirms that I have a hard time distinguishing between the fuseki of 1kyu to 6 kyu.

I find a lot of the difference between strong kyu players is strength in reading, which usually trumps fuseki judgement for say a 3-4 kyu. I've been reviewing games of several players around 2kyu and there are a lot of mistakes in the fuseki, maybe It biased me towards that.

the other answers are pretty much what I expected.