Magicwand - My last comment was a question about whether it was OK to use dictionaries. Feel free to read my comment (and schultz's response). If you think no references, I'll happily take my move back; without a dictionary, I probably would have played on the 3-4 point. I knew on my own that 3-4 wasn't the killing move, but without a dictionary wasn't sure whether it was 2-4 or 2-5. Playing 3-4 would have been the "safe" (ie unlikely to explode in my face even though not the best), so I'm guessing I would have made it in a live game.
And going forward, use references or no? I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, with them available, I'd feel like I should use them on every joseki, which seems less fun. But looking up positions in the middle of a game seems a great learning tool also, so there's an upside to it.
I'll go with whatever you want - move my piece to 3-4 and no references, leave it as-is and no more references, leave it as-is and references from now on, or maybe leave it as-is, use references, but we need to own up to it when a move was influenced by one?
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:27 am
by Magicwand
wms wrote:Magicwand - My last comment was a question about whether it was OK to use dictionaries. Feel free to read my comment (and schultz's response). If you think no references, I'll happily take my move back; without a dictionary, I probably would have played on the 3-4 point. I knew on my own that 3-4 wasn't the killing move, but without a dictionary wasn't sure whether it was 2-4 or 2-5. Playing 3-4 would have been the "safe" (ie unlikely to explode in my face even though not the best), so I'm guessing I would have made it in a live game.
And going forward, use references or no? I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, with them available, I'd feel like I should use them on every joseki, which seems less fun. But looking up positions in the middle of a game seems a great learning tool also, so there's an upside to it.
I'll go with whatever you want - move my piece to 3-4 and no references, leave it as-is and no more references, leave it as-is and references from now on, or maybe leave it as-is, use references, but we need to own up to it when a move was influenced by one?
you may use anything you wish. oh..another thing..i will win this game anyway.. so really doesnt matter.. using joseki dictionary will only help the quality of this game..i am all for it.
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:32 am
by Magicwand
$$c Move 55 FOREVER! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm55 Move 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I prefer to play B55 here. No way white can live inside, while putting a bit of pressure on the left white stone. Black a puts about as much pressure on the white stone, but leaves behind the possibility of white entering the 3-3 point.
If I really want to attack the white stone, then I would play at b instead.
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:06 am
by Phelan
I don't think there's a standard yet.
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:42 am
by fwiffo
Generally people err on the side of hiding most comments.
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:17 am
by Magicwand
in my personal opinion hiding comments and variation is less construtive and defeats the purpose of the game.
i really dont care if i win or lose. but i try my best to win. my main purpose of the game is to teach weaker player how i think. although i dont comment as much as topagz or others but many times i see their comments full of useless variation that weaker people really dont need. what you need is 1 or 2 prediction. if the game gets complicated then making 10~20 variation is not necessary. you wait till your opponent makes his move and go on from there.
And if they dont hide the comment then i can help them as they comment. and also i really dont think what other people says about my game change what i play. and i have yet to see other people's varation that i didnt think about.
but i am only 1 person so i just follow the rule.
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:34 am
by topazg
Magicwand wrote:in my personal opinion hiding comments and variation is less construtive and defeats the purpose of the game.
i really dont care if i win or lose. but i try my best to win. my main purpose of the game is to teach weaker player how i think. although i dont comment as much as topagz or others but many times i see their comments full of useless variation that weaker people really dont need. what you need is 1 or 2 prediction. if the game gets complicated then making 10~20 variation is not necessary. you wait till your opponent makes his move and go on from there.
And if they dont hide the comment then i can help them as they comment. and also i really dont think what other people says about my game change what i play. and i have yet to see other people's varation that i didnt think about.
but i am only 1 person so i just follow the rule.
I agree with this completely. I'm actually very happy with my opponent reading out my comments and thoughts as we play in my 1 vs 1 games too. I might try one like that (although I can understand not looking at analysis from stronger players midgame) at some point. I don't want to beat my opponent because I tricked them, or picked a move they just didn't see, I don't really care about winning. What I want to do is play the best game possible - if I read my opponent has thought of a continuation I didn't consider, I'll remember it for future, and I'll try to outplay it with a better subvariation again. Likewise, my opponent will read my new deviation, and either laugh at its poor quality or come up with a new improvisation that's even better, and so on.
I think games played like this may be much more instructional, because "trick" plays simply can't work and all moves have to be fundamentally as "good" as possible.
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:45 am
by dfan
I wouldn't want all games to be that way, but it might be fun for two players who both wanted to try to have a completely out-in-the-open game.
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:48 am
by Magicwand
unkx80 wrote:Question: is there a standard for hiding all kibitz, or not hiding kibitz for already played-out positions?
$$Bcm55 Move 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm55 Move 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I prefer to play B55 here. No way white can live inside, while putting a bit of pressure on the left white stone. Black a puts about as much pressure on the white stone, but leaves behind the possibility of white entering the 3-3 point.
If I really want to attack the white stone, then I would play at b instead.
i agree 100% with your comments. next move black try to create the moyo as below. but...since i know below variation i probably stop below variation with my next move. because the game has already tilted i can give up that one stone easily and still maintain my lead. but if it was close game then 55 would be very effective way to play and force me to do something more.
$$Bcm55 Move 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . 6 O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 5 4 X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 3 O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 7 . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm55 Move 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . 6 O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 5 4 X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 3 O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 7 . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:07 am
by judicata
Anyone else notice how magicwand uses fewer exclamation points since the migration to the new forum, and to his new avatar? He mentioned that the avatar changed his personality in another thread, and I think he was right. I would be sad to see his aggressive attitude go away entirely .
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:13 am
by wms
$$c Move 55 FOREVER! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This move was done without kogo's - I'm at work and can't spend 15 minutes searching through variations. But it seems to be the key point, and if white were to get this point, it would be very hard to prevent a ko, so I think it is probably the right move.
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:35 am
by Magicwand
$$c Move 55 FOREVER! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$c Move 55 FOREVER! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The empty triangle is a good move, right? C4 would more easily keep the corner dead, but it would also let white cut off C6 and get a bigger left side. I'm hoping this move also kills the corner, but without giving white so much. And yes, all this would have been much easier if C6 had been at C5 instead.
Re: malkovich #21 - magicwand vs. wms
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:55 am
by Magicwand
$$c Move 55 FOREVER! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . O . X O O O X O O . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . O O X . X O X X | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . X X . X X O . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . O X O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
oh..another thing..i will win this game anyway.. so really doesnt matter.. 
.