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Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:55 pm
by MikeKyle
Trigger:
B15-1 -> w14-5

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:25 pm
by EdLee
Hi Mike,
I feel like I should disclose that I looked at the empty board for quite a while on this move.
3. We may not ever look at the game on a board. We may only visualize the board from moves written in text
Rule 3 was ambiguous about looking at an empty board. It's appropriate to let Telegraph know, so he can agree or disagree about looking at an empty board. Obviously, an empty board helps.

Re:

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:36 pm
by MikeKyle
EdLee wrote:Hi Mike,
I feel like I should disclose that I looked at the empty board for quite a while on this move.
3. We may not ever look at the game on a board. We may only visualize the board from moves written in text
Rule 3 was ambiguous about looking at an empty board. It's appropriate to let Telegraph know, so he can agree or disagree about looking at an empty board. Obviously, an empty board helps.
Good point. Thanks

I had a good look at the empty board diagram before. It felt a bit like cheating. Not sure if it's undermining the spirit of the game a little. Perhaps we should decide if that needs to be a rule?

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:44 pm
by TelegraphGo
Trigger accepted. W hane, B connect, and after W 14-5,
I play:
16-6
Q6

Oh and I haven't been looking at the empty board, but I don't mind if you do. I'll just include a note in my comment if it gets to that point for me.
Of course he shouldn't play tiger's mouth right away, that would have been poor form. Jumping up is being rather aggressive towards my right side black group, probably not bad though.

I really wanted to abstain from making this forcing move, but it's not the end of the world. Actually, black getting sente at 12-5 is looking pretty sickening for white, so I wouldn't be surprised to see white tenuki from the right side group, even though it's obviously huge. I wonder if I should exchange the cuts if he does, so that if he ends up with the first move over there it's as if I pushed and cut and he answered on the wrong side?

Anyway, with my hane on the first line I think I'm a lot less worried about my 12-3 stone than I would have been with the descent, so I'm happy so far. I'm expecting white to play 12-4 or 17-7.

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:05 pm
by MikeKyle
17-7
R7
This is a simple enough exchange that I didn't foresee.
I didn't like the thought of black getting 17-7 though so I think I can be slightly pleased with a small gain on the right side. Feels like it does a tiny bit of damage to the upper right hoshi's prospects. I have lost a bit in the centre but I think I will be able to settle some stones still. Currently thinking about sacrificing the 14-3 stones more quickly

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:49 pm
by EdLee
Spoiler: Diagram!
.
:b1: - :w10: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . 9 . 8 . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
:b1: 16-16 Q16, :w2: 4-4 D4, :b3: 16-4 Q4, :w4: 4-16 D16, :b5: 6-3 F3,
:w6: 3-6 C6 :b7: 7-6 G6, :w8: 14-3 o3, :b9: 12-3 M3, :w10: 17-3 R3,
:b11: - :w20: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . , . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 0 . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . O 7 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
:b11: 16-3 Q3, :w12: 14-7 R4, triggers,
:b19: 15-7 P7, :w20: 10-4 K4,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 8 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . 1 . . . . . 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 5 . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
:b21: 16-6 K6, :w22: 14-2 o2, :b23: 14-1 o1, :w24: 13-1 N1, :b25: 15-1 o1,
:w26: 14-5 o5, :b27: 16-6 Q6, :w28: 17-7 R7,

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:11 pm
by TelegraphGo
12-5
M5
One space jump to the center.
In a fight (actually just in general if you integrate over empty points) the most efficient move causes the biggest change in strength possible. An easy way to get close to the most efficient move is to find the weakest thing, then, and make it as strong as you can. My stone at M3 is clearly the weakest stone on the board, and white is weak nearby, so the best move is going to be making it as strong as possible. It's just a choice between shapes.
I briefly considered playing L5 to have a diagonal relationship to K6 as opposed to a knight's move. But, that would probably be focusing on the wrong weakness. M3 is important, and M5 is just so nice, splitting white in two pieces, where I'm already ahead in the race to the center, and neither can make eyes. I won't necessarily be able to kill either group, but I expect white will be struggling for quite a few moves yet. AI probably still calls the game pretty even, but if ELF doesn't say I have >80% winrate by move 50, I'll be shocked. It's just so hard for humans to assist weak groups correctly.
For the next move, I bet white will attach O7, after which I will hane O8. He's in for a rough time.

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:45 am
by EdLee
diagram

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:19 am
by MikeKyle
Comments only
This isn't hard because it's blind particularly but just because my opponent is so much better than me!

I have so many weaknesses and I can't really figure any out if black has useful weaknesses.
Quickly dismissed a few moves: 13-2, 13-3, 13-4, 12-2. 13-6 also doesn't feel like it does much but add to a heavy group.
Currently considering 11-6 type things

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:03 am
by MikeKyle
9-6
J6
I really can't read much that looks good for me.
I was thinking of going for the silly looking ko with something like w11-3,b12-2,w11-5,b11-6, w12-4,b13-4 w13-5. But black can respond to a bunch of my ko threats which would just be pokes at the thin stuff I think and then I think he could avoid the ko actually being a problem - he would connect underneath with no eye, I would connect my stones together with no eye and I don't think trying to cut around o-7 and attack the wall would work well after that.

Time to thrash around and make my opponent stronger maybe :/

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:45 am
by TelegraphGo
9-7
J7
Hane over top.

Given that he made a comment before his move, I presume he was reading hard before playing this move. The good news is that he decided to start with a somewhat crude move first, where I don't have to think very hard. Also, I'm not sure that this is the right timing at all - his stones on the O-line are going to be liability to die quickly, as opposed to helping exploit my weaknesses in the center. I think coming out with O7 attachment first was called for.

When you get attached in the most valuable area, the only candidates are hane or extend in some direction. In this case, if I extend I'm going to be further weakening my large knight's on the left for no apparent reason - I should, at least at first, only consider hane over top or cutting with the hane underneath.

If I hane under, he will cut, and then I can capture his cutting stone with a ladder at J7. The problem is that he would then atari at 11-6 and connect at 11-5, and my shape would be horribly broken, and I'd have lost initiative on the right. Cutting is committing too hard to the left large knight's jump.

So it only took me about a minute to verify that hane is the only basic candidate and at least a very reasonable answer. If there were no AI to potentially prove me wrong, I'd just go ahead and say it's the best move without further analysis. Having easy good moves like this means that my position can certainly be no worse than it was last move, so I'll just wait for him to show me what his plan is, and start reading seriously then. I can't imagine a sequence where I'm going to wish I had responded to this attachment in some other way.

What will he do next? Maybe crosscut at K7 (10-7). I think I have a decent sequence planned out for that. If he pushes along at 8-6 then he's bumping his head into my large knight and making me look like a genius joseki-innovator, but if he tenuki's entirely then this was a bad exchange for W. Maybe he wants to clamp at 11-6? I should just be able to cut it. He might descend down at J5, in which case I'm probably going to kill him gently by securing my outside weaknesses. This is not the time to play heavy shapes. I think if I were white, I would crosscut at K7, it looks like the most promising use of this aji.

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:57 am
by EdLee
diagram

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:08 pm
by MikeKyle
11-3
L3
I think this should either help make a base or help me cut across the knights move at 11-6.. I think..

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:03 pm
by EdLee
diagram

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:53 pm
by TelegraphGo
13-2
N2
Atari, and connection underneath.

Huh? He kicked? Why? Obviously, if I let him connect by playing tiger's mouth at 12-2 himself I'm going to have a bad time. So my only options are 13-2 to connect to my wall, 13-3 to make a weird defensive shape, and 12-2 to keep locally strong shape. If his move is a good move, I probably have to play 12-2 or he'll take advantage of my shape somehow.

The only reason he could have played this move is if he's looking for aji to play out a sequence somewhere else and wants a good exchange first. The key is to give him as little of use as possible here. I think he might be looking at the crosscut at 6-4, 7-4, 7-3, and trying to ensure himself life on the bottom? I think I'm just going to respond passively over there at the point, giving him a large corner in order to take the bottom strongly.

13-3 I can't really see a good reason for. It seems to just give him another nice forcing move by descending at 11-2, threatening again to play 13-2 to connect himself.

My first instinct was 13-2, but then the shape looked a little suspicious and I thought there might be some small trap. If he wedges, I atari, and he connects with an empty triangle, then I'd like to connect on top to help with the knight's move weakness. I thought at first that he would then play atari from his two stones at 13-3. I totally forgot that his two stones right now have barely any liberties, so that if he does such a thing, it's self atari. All he could do is double atari with 12-2, and when I connect, he'd be out of forcing moves. If he connects that back and hopes I respond, I certainly don't have to locally to maintain my capture of his first line stone. I'll note here that this is my first misread that I can say is almost certainly caused by not looking at the board :)

Overall, though, that's looking really promising for 13-2 over 12-2. If there's not immediate tactical reason not to, it will make me so much stronger in the potential fight at the center to connect while disconnecting. He needs some other order of moves to exploit my shape locally. Maybe the clamp again at 11-6? My plan was to play 11-5 cutting it, and it doesn't seem by my reading that this exchange will help him exploit that. The center crosscut seems to go much better when I don't have to worry so much about my 12-th line stones, because they're connected to my wall. I can't read anywhere he can take advantage, then, so I'm just going take my connection and claim a good exchange.

Next move I expect he will get to the point and define a shape for these middle stones somewhere. The white stones on the 14-th line are basically toast for him after my move, so I'm expecting something to do with my large knight on the left. I don't think there's anything that good to do there, so I think he's about to crash and burn. This has become a very difficult position for white.