Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
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I doubt if that is against the current consensus. Everybody who likes the J89 rules, raise your hand.moha wrote:BTW, this is against the current consensus OC, but I think bent4 dead even with unramovable threats is a poor result.
I think the rulemakers of the J89 rule did a great job. At least I tip my hat to them.Bill Spight wrote: I doubt if that is against the current consensus. Everybody who likes the J89 rules, raise your hand.
In case you are trying to ask "Shouldn't every anti-seki result in both palyer's loss?", I think viewtopic.php?p=252059#p252059 answers that there are potential anti-seki cases that both players do not mind asking resumption of the game, but the opponents still do not want to make further play.Besides, why an anti-seki is not both lose, I don't know.
is dead when considered separately (even though 
and the White stones as a whole are alive) and so point 'b' is dame:
I agree with you, white must play teire in your example.CDavis7M wrote:This board position is still kicking around and is being discussed at the OGS forums. The main question is whether White owes teire -- a move to solidify the position (e.g., at 'a'). Since this post is old I'll try to give a recap and present the positions, and explain my position. And then I'll explain what the real problem is -- this position is not a proper end-of-game board state. Black would take the ko, force White to throw in, and then force White teire. White teire is required.
Recap:
There's the question of whether White is alive, and whether the stones are seki, and the main question of whether White owes teire ('a', etc). No doubt the 3 Black stones are dead. And no doubt the 5 White stones can be captured but only if White gets to place stones such that the marked stone is no longer in ko (e.g., when there is a White stone at 'a').
Some people think that because the 3 Black stones are dead and the 22 White stones are alive, then then White is alive with territory and may take the 3 Black stones off the board.
Other people think that because the 5 White stones can be captured, that White owes teire. Otherwise the White stones will have dame and be seki without territory.
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My position:
I think that the 22 White stones are alive but that the 5 White stones are dead when considered separately. The intersection in the 5 White stones is dame, so those stones are seki stones, and the intersection of the 5 White stones is not territory. White owes teire.
Examples 24 and 25 show how stones are considered both as a whole and separately.
Here,
白△は「死に石」白□は「活き石」である。したがって、ｂは「駄目」、ｃは目となる。
Here, the White and Black stones as a whole cannot be captured, but the single ko stones are dead and so points 'a' and 'b' are dame.
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I admit that the position is confusing. First, this position is not similar to any examples in the Japanese Rules because White's 17 stones are already alive and uncapturable and it is clear that the 3 Black stones are dead. There is nothing to "confirm" about the 17 White stones in L&D confirmation. Second, the positions in the Japanese Rules dealing with teire involve seki stones or dead stones on both sides (both situations without territory), not one side alive while the other is dead as is the case here.
Thinking about this more, I believe that the position is confusing because it is not actually a "proper" end-of-game position. I mean that additional moves would/should take place during actual game play. Specifically, Black would capture and force White to throw in, which would eventually result in White teire. So yes, White teire is required.
Backing up, the premise is that White is winning by half a point and that teire inside his territory would lose the game. So Black must force White teire. During the game (not so-called "hypothetical play"), Black would take the ko and cause White to throw in. If there is a Double Ko on the board, then White may not want to throw-in, play the Double Ko instead, and so this position may repeat and lead to No Result. After White throws in and black captures, White is winning. But White cannot just pass in this position because Black will capture the White stones. So, White must capture the ko back. White is still winning but White cannot pretend that this position is acceptable to pass because Black will just retake the ko and threaten capture the 5 White stones. White must play teire and lose a point.
added?If the L&D status of the White stones were confirmed after the game is stopped: The 5 White stones are dead and their empty intersection is dame, not territory. This is because the L&D status of stones is considered as a whole and separately. As a whole with the other stones, 5 the White stones are alive. But separately, they are dead. The original 18 White stones (markedGérard TAILLE wrote:what is your position for the following position, with the
and 
, I apologize for marking the wrong diagram but I can't be bothered to change it now) are easily deemed separately alive in the original position. The original 23 White stones as a whole can also be confirmed to be alive because they cannot be captured as a whole. It doesn't matter whether 5 stones can be captured and 2 new stones cannot be captured because 17 of the original stones (having 2 eyes) cannot be captured at all. and only re-confirm the status of the 18 White stones separately and the 23 White stones as a whole, but say nothing about the separate L&D status of the 5 White stones.
passes for the Double Ko (instead of passing for the Upper ko as in the actual Example) then some might think that 
also needs to pass for the Double Ko, causing a never-ending passes and retakes in the Double Ko without ever resolving the upper corner. However, consider if passes for the Double Ko and captures White in the upper corner. This lets 
retake the Double Ko leading to capture of Black in the lower corner. Even in this case, the fact that White was able to create new uncapturable stones in the lower left corner says NOTHING about the L&D status of the White stones in the upper left because the stones in the lower left were already deemed to be alive by virtue of the double ko.
and "confirm" nothing about the status of the 5 White stones when they are considered separately. "Confirmation" is determining the status of something unknown. There is nothing unknown about the status of the 18 stones. Therefore, the possibility of playing new stones and has no bearing on L&D "confirmation." White can also retake a ko, so Black cannot capture. After the throw-in during the game, Black cannot capture the 5 White stones in L&D confirmation, but could have captured before the game-play throw-in. Black should not throw-in because otherwise White would have dame in L&D confirmation and lose territory.This is why Black will not capture and induce White to throw-in. And I agree that no stones need to be added because adding a stone does not change the life and death status nor does it change the amount of territory.Harleqin wrote:In the following:
If black captures at 'a', White will throw in at 'b', so that Black is dead in double ko. Black thus has no move here. On the other hand, White can capture at any time. So the black three stones are dead and all white stones alive. No stone needs to be added.
in the game and can always be replayed (double ko, etc.), and even if the 13 White stones including are living stones, when considered separately by itself is a dead stone and point 'b' is dame. Whereas is alive when considered separately. stones. This same position does not somehow also "confirm" the living status of the 5 White stones. There is no more uncertainty about this position and nothing left to "confirm." If the players consider the 5 White stones together with the 1 stone stone, then of course the 6 White stones are alive. But replaying the same sequence adds nothing to the players understanding of White's L&D status. stones cannot be captured. Not even if Black plays all of 
because 
is an illegal move. Of course. This part is easy.
At this point of 死活確認, the 1 White ko-stone is not considered because it can be captured:
The 5 White stones in the corner are also not considered because they can be captured:
STEP 2
is a new uncapturable stone that also makes 
uncapturable. Black does not bother with the 5 White stones because capturing them has nothing to do with whether the 1 stone can be captured and it also has nothing to do with whether the 1 capturable White stone can create a new uncapturable stone. Of course, Black also cannot just connect to ko, nor can Black play self-atari. Black captured the 1 White stone and White played and , which are then uncapturable. So the living status of the 1 White stone is confirmed. stones are alive because they cannot be captured and the 1 White stone is alive because although it can be captured, it can create at least one new uncapturable stone.
STEP 3 . What is their status?
Here, Black proves that the 5 White stones are dead.
Wait, but what about this position? Don't the 2 new uncapturable stones confirm that the 5 White stones are alive?
No. This is the same position that was already considered when determining the L&D status of the 1 White stone. There is no more uncertainty about this position and nothing left to "confirm." If they players consider the 5 White stones together with the 1 stone stone then of course the 6 White stones are alive. But this adds nothing to their understanding of L&D status. The 5 White stones are still dead when considered separately. 
is surrounded by dead stones of one player. It is not surrounded by living stones of one player. Therefore, it is not an eye 目, it is dame 駄目. Only 目, not 駄目, can be territory 地. So White does not count as territory.Black cannot capture the White stones during game-play but because Article 7-2 requires a pass before retaking a ko, the 5 White stones are capturable for purposes of Life and Death confirmation. Because the 5 White stones are capturable, they are dead because the only new uncapturable stones that can be played are stones that are only uncapturable by virtue of other stones that are independently alive and can already be deemed alive.Harleqin wrote:If the white stones are alive and the black stones dead, then there are no dame. There is no way for Black to capture the white stones, so they are alive. White can capture the black stones anytime, so they are dead. There are no dame.
, not any capture of the 5 White stones because the 5 White stones do not have to be captured to be able to play the 2 new uncapturable stones . Only the 1 White ko-stone needs to be captured.I try to understand your point but it is not that easy.CDavis7M wrote:I think some of the confusion comes from looking at the 5 stones first. I don't think this is how "Life & Death Confirmation" works. Considering the L&D status of the 5 stones by placing new uncapturable stones with an already independently living group is not "confirmation" affording to the definition of the word.
If you don't like dictionaries or diagrams, my main point is this: This position that can result in determining the L&D status of the 5 White stones is the same position that can result when determining the L&D status of the 1 White ko-stone. The 1 White ko-stone is alive because even though it can be captured it can create the two
Because the 1 White stone is independently alive without the 5 White stones and without their capture or not, then the same position does not also prove that the 5 White stones are alive. Repeating the same analysis is not what "confirmation" (kakunin 確認) is.
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第九条－２
対局の停止後、双方が石の死活及び地を確認し、合意することにより対局は終了する
According to Kenkuysha's J-E dictionary:
Kakunin 確認 n. confirmation; affirmation; certification; corroboration; validation.
Jisho.org gives: confirmation; verification; validation; review; check; affirmation; identification.
As for the English definitions of these words, the OED indicates that they all require some uncertainty or informality in a determination or declaration that is now being solidified, firmed, or formalized.
The players performing 死活確認 L&D Kakunin need to find all the L&D that is uncertain and solidify and formalize the status. They will of course start with the definition of 活き石 Living/Alive Stones: 相手方の着手により取られない石、又は取られても新たに相手方に取られない石を生じうる石は「活き石」という。So first, identify stones that cannot be captured and confirm their living status. Then identify stones that can be captured, but even though they can be captured, they can create new uncapturable stones. It seems many people prefer diagrams so here I go.
STEP 1
The players confirming White's L&D status look for White's stones that cannot be captured. The do not look for White's stones that can be captured yet. They can confirm that White's 17
Now that the players have confirmed the uncapturable stones, they know that White's 17 stones are alive. But what about White's 1 ko-stone that can be captured? Is it alive? Can it create new uncapturable stones?
I agree with you Harleqin, in this position I do not want white to add a move.Harleqin wrote:In my view it is quite simple: if that is the result of your interpretation of the japanese rules, then either the interpretation or the rules are wrong.