Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:31 pm

I felt that if I play there, black will just jump up and reducing would be annoying. I can attach underneath the pincering stones and live anytime. I believe that the right move would be jump, though this is a very painful move to play.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:41 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . a . . . . c b . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . X . O . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . B . O . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let's say that white invades and lives like this (I made up the actual living shape, so it might not represent ideal play, but clearly white can live in that area without a problem). To me, black feels very overconcentrated on the top side, especially when moves like 'a', 'b', and 'c' exist. So I would go as far as to say that IMO, a black one-space jump is bad here.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:54 pm

Hmmm, interesting. Did you perhaps just enclose the bottom right, then?

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:58 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

hehehe... seems i forgot what i actually played.

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:08 pm

@ Dusk Eagle, remember that black has sente after a corner invasion. I would not mind playing black in that position with sente.

some other thoughts:

I would conciser playing like this. for several reasons see below the diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . W . . 2 . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

1) This white structure is now very strong, allowing white to attack without much worries later.
2) White can seal in the corner by attaching at a as a follow-up.
3) Black does not have a single move to enclose the moyo. he can either enclose the top or the corner but not both with one move.
4) We already concluded that whites approach at the top was probably not the best choice, so white can not expect to came back from this "mistake" in only 2-3 moves, else it would not have been a mistake.
5) maybe a bad reason, but this white structure reminds me of a common variation in the kobayashi opening, and if pro's play it, it can not be all that bad.

the opening I referred to in point 5. I know it is not the same, but I was reminded of it and this topic is about dan players thoughts, I thought sharing it might be a good idea.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . X O . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But apparently M15 is not what white played in the game.
I don't think white can afford to tenuki, so maybe white played P15 first.
the reason I do not like this is that black can decide to play like below,
If white played M15 first black does not get this choice.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . a O . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if

@ a, black can cut at :w12:

, not a nice cut,
but black is stronger around, making it a good fight for black.

*edit, while writing this post the next move was made already, I put quite a bit of time in it and thought it would be a wast to just delete it all :-?

.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:28 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:07 am

Let's try and get this started again...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . 1 . X . O . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:29 am

This is where I always unthinkingly jump out to a and then one second later realize that maybe I was supposed to play b or c instead to block the connection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . 1 . X . O . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . b , c . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:39 am

dfan wrote:This is where I always unthinkingly jump out to a and then one second later realize that maybe I was supposed to play b or c instead to block the connection.

$$Wcm8
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . 1 . X . O . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . b , c . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think I'd play 'c' here. :w8:

seems to be the weakest stone, and I believe the common wisdom is that you don't want to attach (or shoulder-hit) a weak stone when you want to attack, right?

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:11 am

Marcus wrote:
dfan wrote:This is where I always unthinkingly jump out to a and then one second later realize that maybe I was supposed to play b or c instead to block the connection.

$$Wcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . X . O . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . b , c . . . . , . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . 1 . X . O . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . b , c . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think I'd play 'c' here. seems to be the weakest stone, and I believe the common wisdom is that you don't want to attach (or shoulder-hit) a weak stone when you want to attack, right?

If the top left was a regular knight's enclosure, I would play 'b' in a heartbeat. However, since it's a bit more loose, I would jump straight out to 'a' and threaten to harass one side or the other. That said, I lost a game the other day because I played the equivalent of 'a' instead of 'b'... =D

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:30 am

I would have played b, myself..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . X . O . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:07 am

Shaddy wrote:I would have played b, myself..

$$Bcm9
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . X . O . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really don't like this move, but maybe I'm just not used to this type of thing ... it feels so slow ...

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:09 am

Marcus wrote:I really don't like this move, but maybe I'm just not used to this type of thing ... it feels so slow ...

I don't think it's slow at all; iron pillars are pretty darn strong. What would concern me more is its heaviness.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:37 am

I couldn't decide which side to attack, so I went for both... It's heavy and doesn't feel quite right, I agree...

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:27 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . O . X . O . . O . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts

Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts