Life In 19x19

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:42 am**

RobertJasiek wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . X O X X |
$$ | O O X O . O O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X . X O X X | $$ | O O X O . O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]
Can white prevents black to make infinite passes? Obviously the answer is NO?
Can black prevents white to make infinite passes? This time the answer is YES, isn't it?
The situation is not symmetrical => black has an advantageous loop.

Considering your questions the point is to avoid mixing the two questions above. It is true that if black plays a sequence showing infinite passes for black then white would have also infinite passes. But that was not the questions above.

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | X X X X X X X |
$$ | . X . X . X O |
$$ | O O X O X O . |
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X . X O | $$ | O O X O X O . | $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]
Can white prevents black to make infinite passes? Obviously the answer is YES?
Can black prevents white to make infinite passes? the answer is still YES?
The situation appears symmetrical => no advantageous loop.
I do not understand what you are trying to say. Please explain!

Robert, I just tried to answer Jann questions (maybe I missed Jann point

).
These "have a loop" and "have an advantageous loop" doesn't seem clear enough. Do sequences with double passes count as loop? If no, how to "have advantageous loop" if opponent passes (once) after my pass? If yes, would a sole double ko seki make a loop? Maybe an advantageous loop even, breaking it?

I am not quite sure what additional information you want. Maybe I can clarify why I invented this "advantageous loop".
When you take a set of positions with potential loop (typically with three kos) the results for these positions given by J89 or J2003 or any traditionnal japonese rules depend clearly of the specific position. The work I have done was to try to find a particularity which can tell me if the result will be territory or a seki. I hoped and I was alomost convinced that such particularity must exist to explain the logic of japonese rules and result expected.
The result of my search is : yes this particularity is simply the answer to the two questions:
Can white prevents black to make infinite passes?
Can black prevents white to make infinite passes?
If the answers to these two questions are not the same then, for all examples I studied, the result will be dead versus alive stones (using common GO language) and the answer to the two questions tell us which side is in the best position. If the answers to these two questions are the same then, for all examples I studied, the result will be seki, neither side having an advantage.
In order to reach a result as close as possible to the expected result my view was simply to introduce these two questions within confirmation phase.
OC the exact wording has to be studied carefully but this is the idea.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:43 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X . X O X X | $$ | O O X O . O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Can White prevent Black from making infinite passes?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X 1 X O X X | $$ | O O X O 2 O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W :w3: :b4: pass $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X O X 5 X X | $$ | O O 6 O X O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 :w7: :b8: pass $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X 1 X O X X | $$ | O O X O 2 O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X O X 5 X X | $$ | O O 6 O X O O | $$ | 4 O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X . X O X X | $$ | O O X O . O O | $$ | X O O O O O O | $$ | 7 X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 :b8: pass $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X 1 X O X X | $$ | O O X O 2 O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 :w11: :b12: pass $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X O X 5 X X | $$ | O O 6 O X O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

see main line...

#############################
#############################

Can Black prevent White from making infinite passes?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X 2 X O X X | $$ | O O X O 1 O O | $$ | 3 O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

are atari

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X O X 4 X X | $$ | O O 5 O X O O | $$ | X O O O O O O | $$ | 6 X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

is atari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X 8 X O X X | $$ | O O X O 7 O O | $$ | 9 O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

are atari.
Ad infinitum...

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:51 am**

Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:Is it simply a wording problem or it is a problem on the procedure itself?
BTW I did not use the wording "cycle" because for me a cycle is a sequence which is repeat indefinitly without any change. In that sense a cycle is only a particular case of loop.
In my understanding (visualise a solidly connected triple-ko, for example):

$$B Loop
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+
$$ {AR F8 G7}
$$ {AR H6 H5}
$$ {AR G4 F3}
$$ {AR D3 C4}
$$ {AR B5 B6}
$$ {AR C7 D8}
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Loop $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+ $$ {AR F8 G7} $$ {AR H6 H5} $$ {AR G4 F3} $$ {AR D3 C4} $$ {AR B5 B6} $$ {AR C7 D8}[/go]
A loop, once started, has no end. It's like walking on the circumference of a circle.

$$B Cycle #1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+
$$ {AR F8 G7}
$$ {AR H6 H5}
$$ {AR G4 F3}
$$ {AR D3 C4}
$$ {AR B5 B6}
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Cycle #1 $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . . . . . 3 . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+ $$ {AR F8 G7} $$ {AR H6 H5} $$ {AR G4 F3} $$ {AR D3 C4} $$ {AR B5 B6}[/go]
First walk on the complete circumference of a circle. We get infinitely close to the starting point without reaching it.

$$Bm7 Cycle #2
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+
$$ {AR F8 G7}
$$ {AR H6 H5}
$$ {AR G4 F3}
$$ {AR D3 C4}
$$ {AR B5 B6}
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7 Cycle #2 $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . . . . . 3 . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+ $$ {AR F8 G7} $$ {AR H6 H5} $$ {AR G4 F3} $$ {AR D3 C4} $$ {AR B5 B6}[/go]
A tiny additional jump brought us to the initial starting point. It follows the second walk on the complete cirumfence.
Ad infinitum ...

############################

Just looked at your posting again. Probably I found the reason for our misunderstanding:

Cassandra wrote:BLACK's advantageous loop has a cycle-length of a 6, which fulfills the condition x = (2 + 2n) with n = 1, 2, 3, ...
Therefore, simply prohibit the terminating move of an uninterrupted cycle (which would be a WHITE ko capture).
This is what I intended ( ) to write. Seems that it was too deep in the night...

I understand Cassandra and I agree with you for "simple" 3 kos positions. I just try to be more general, including position with 4 kos in which it is difficult to identify what the length of a cycle could be. In my GT rule I would like to take into all types of loops and not only 3 kos positions.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:53 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X . X O | $$ | O O X O X O . | $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Can White prevent Black from making infinite passes?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X 3 X 1 X O | $$ | O O X O X O 2 | $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W :b4: pass $$ ----------------- $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | 5 X O X O X 7 | $$ | O O 8 O 6 O X | $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 $$ ----------------- $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | O X 3 X 1 X O | $$ | O O X O X O 2 | $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Etc. ad infinitum.
All moves from

on are atari.

#############################
#############################

Can Black prevent White from making infinite passes?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | 1 X 4 X 2 X O | $$ | O O X O X O 3 | $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | X X O X O X 6 | $$ | O O 7 O 5 O X | $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

Etc. ad infinitum.
All moves from

on are atari.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:56 am**

Cassandra wrote:
$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . X O X X |
$$ | O O X O . O O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X . X O X X | $$ | O O X O . O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]
Can White prevent Black from making infinite passes?

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X 1 X O X X |
$$ | O O X O 2 O O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X 1 X O X X | $$ | O O X O 2 O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

$$W :w3: :b4: pass
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X O X 5 X X |
$$ | O O 6 O X O O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w3: :b4: pass $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X O X 5 X X | $$ | O O 6 O X O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

$$Wm9 :w7: :b8: pass
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X 1 X O X X |
$$ | O O X O 2 O O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm9 :w7: :b8: pass $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X 1 X O X X | $$ | O O X O 2 O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]
Variation:

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X O X 5 X X |
$$ | O O 6 O X O O |
$$ | 4 O O O O O O |
$$ | O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X O X 5 X X | $$ | O O 6 O X O O | $$ | 4 O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . X O X X |
$$ | O O X O . O O |
$$ | X O O O O O O |
$$ | 7 X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X . X O X X | $$ | O O X O . O O | $$ | X O O O O O O | $$ | 7 X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

$$Wm9 :b8: pass
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X 1 X O X X |
$$ | O O X O 2 O O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm9 :b8: pass $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X 1 X O X X | $$ | O O X O 2 O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

$$Wm9 :w11: :b12: pass
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X O X 5 X X |
$$ | O O 6 O X O O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm9 :w11: :b12: pass $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X O X 5 X X | $$ | O O 6 O X O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]
see main line...

#############################
#############################

Can Black prevent White from making infinite passes?

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X 2 X O X X |
$$ | O O X O 1 O O |
$$ | 3 O O O O O O |
$$ | O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X 2 X O X X | $$ | O O X O 1 O O | $$ | 3 O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]
are atari

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X O X 4 X X |
$$ | O O 5 O X O O |
$$ | X O O O O O O |
$$ | 6 X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X O X 4 X X | $$ | O O 5 O X O O | $$ | X O O O O O O | $$ | 6 X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]
is atari.

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X 8 X O X X |
$$ | O O X O 7 O O |
$$ | 9 O O O O O O |
$$ | O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X 8 X O X X | $$ | O O X O 7 O O | $$ | 9 O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]
are atari.
Ad infinitum...

That means that you agree with me?
Can white prevents black to make infinite passes? NO
Can black prevents white to make infinite passes? YES
=> black has an advantageous loop

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:59 am**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:I understand Cassandra and I agree with you for "simple" 3 kos positions. I just try to be more general, including position with 4 kos in which it is difficult to identify what the length of a cycle could be. In my GT rule I would like to take into all types of loops and not only 3 kos positions.

If you had a concrete example with 4 ko available, we could discuss this issue deeper ...

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:01 am**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:That means that you agree with me?
Can white prevents black to make infinite passes? NO
Can black prevents white to make infinite passes? YES
=> black has an advantageous loop

Oh, sorry.

I thought the conclusion would be clear, given the pass stones below the diagrams.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:24 am**

Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:I understand Cassandra and I agree with you for "simple" 3 kos positions. I just try to be more general, including position with 4 kos in which it is difficult to identify what the length of a cycle could be. In my GT rule I would like to take into all types of loops and not only 3 kos positions.
If you had a concrete example with 4 ko available, we could discuss this issue deeper ...

Yes OC here is an example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . X X X O O X X . | $$ | X X O O X O O X X | $$ | O O O X X X O O O | $$ | O O X . X . X O O | $$ | O O O X X X O O O | $$ | . O . O X O . O . | $$ ---------------------[/go]

Oops it does not seem to be the best example, I will try to find another. At least you can just try to identify what you mean by length of a cycle.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:48 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X . X O X X | $$ | O O X O . O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]

"Can White prevent Black from making infinite passes?"

What are infinite passes? After two successive passes, hypothetical play ends.

Black always passes and does not care whether his stones are removed therefore White cannot prevent Black from passing.

Apparently, you mean something else. Something like my "answer-force". Some dual strategy like "force local-2 permanent removal or an infinite cycle". Just guessing what you might mean.

Write down what you mean!

Next, you ask

"Can Black prevent White from making infinite passes?"

I suppose by posing two questions you try to invent status definitions similar to my basic ko type definitions with their typically four questions: http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/ko_types.pdf

English spelling: Japanese.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:39 pm**

RobertJasiek wrote:
$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . X O X X |
$$ | O O X O . O O |
$$ | . O O O O O O |
$$ | O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X X X X X | $$ | X X . X O X X | $$ | O O X O . O O | $$ | . O O O O O O | $$ | O X X X X X X | $$ | X X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . | $$ -----------------[/go]
"Can White prevent Black from making infinite passes?"

What are infinite passes? After two successive passes, hypothetical play ends.

Black always passes and does not care whether his stones are removed therefore White cannot prevent Black from passing.

Apparently, you mean something else. Something like my "answer-force". Some dual strategy like "force local-2 permanent removal or an infinite cycle". Just guessing what you might mean.

Write down what you mean!

Next, you ask

"Can Black prevent White from making infinite passes?"

I suppose by posing two questions you try to invent status definitions similar to my basic ko type definitions with their typically four questions: http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/ko_types.pdf

English spelling: Japanese.

Look at viewtopic.php?p=266766#p266766 where I have analysed this position for the first time.
At the very beginning of this post I clarified the objective of the corresponding hypothetical play (I am not sure it is good idea to introduce the wording "hypothetical play" in my rule but at least I understand what it means here in your post):
Is all the board black territory?
IOW, because there are no problem with the borders, the question becomes "is black able to build a two eye formation covering all the board?"
Keeping this in mind you know if you can afford to pass: if by passing you cannot not reach your ojective then you simply cannot pass.

Remember how works the confirmation phase. It is a loop with three points
1) A player claim that a set of location is her territory
2) Borders are verified
3) if borders are OK then the only purpose of the analyse is to know whether or not the player is able to build a two eye formation covering all the set of locations.

When you say "after two successive passes, hypothetical play ends" it is OC a wording remark for my proposal text. I am sure you have understood my idea : because we have to care about ko ban, obviously I have to add that the "hypothetical play" ends after three passes (remember I have no ko-pass nor pass-for-ko in my rule)

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:30 am**

jmeinh wrote:Interesting project.

I'm not sure if
"2) the outside border of this set is only made of stones of the opponent or is empty"
really does what it's supposed to do (or if I don't quite understand it yet).

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . W W W W W W |
$$ | B B B B B B B |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . O . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | . W W W W W W | $$ | B B B B B B B | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . O . | $$ -----------------[/go]
Is the marked set of locations a black territory?
if so, with what score?

A more detailled version of 2) might be:

The outside border of this set is only made of stones of the opponent (thus do not include any unoccupied board point) or is empty (i.e. the set includes the entire board).

Or in the theory of sets:

The subset "outside border" of the set "go board" that is related to a subset "potential two-eye-formation" includes only elements "board point" that have the property "occupied with an opponent's stone", or is empty.

--------------------

In your example, Black will be forced to occupy all the dame, in order to claim "territory" at the top.
During this process, hopefully he will be so very smart to capture White's stones at the upper edge in due time.

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:00 am**

Cassandra wrote:
jmeinh wrote:Interesting project.

I'm not sure if
"2) the outside border of this set is only made of stones of the opponent or is empty"
really does what it's supposed to do (or if I don't quite understand it yet).

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . W W W W W W |
$$ | B B B B B B B |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . O . |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | . W W W W W W | $$ | B B B B B B B | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . O . | $$ -----------------[/go]
Is the marked set of locations a black territory?
if so, with what score?
A more detailled version of 2) might be:

The outside border of this set is only made of stones of the opponent (thus do not include any unoccupied board point) or is empty (i.e. the set includes the entire board).

Or in the theory of sets:

The subset "outside border" of the set "go board" that is related to a subset "potential two-eye-formation" includes only elements "board point" that have the property "occupied with an opponent's stone", or is empty.

--------------------

In your example, Black will be forced to occupy all the dame, in order to claim "territory" at the top.
During this process, hopefully he will be so very smart to capture White's stones at the upper edge in due time.

Yes the wording
"2) the outside border of this set is only made of stones of the opponent or is empty"
is not good.

What about the following one:
2) In the outside border there are neither empty locations nor stones of the player.
That way it is alway true if the outside border is empty (has no locations).

In the diagram above there are no territory (same reult in J89 or J2003).

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:23 am**

Concerning the ko rules, my questions remain the same. Examples do not replace rules clarification.

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:30 am**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:What about the following one:
2) In the outside border there are neither empty locations nor stones of the player.
That way it is alway true if the outside border is empty (has no locations).

My suggestion:

2) The outside border must contain neither empty locations nor stones of the player.

As it is mandatory for your concept that all (genuine) DAME on the board are occupied, it might be best to formulate a ban.

Disclaimer: For the exact formulation my German English will not be the best recommendation

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:43 am**

RobertJasiek wrote:Concerning the ko rules, my questions remain the same. Examples do not replace rules clarification.

Which "ko rules", Robert?

The average reader will understand Gérard's introduction of this thread to mean that this thread is about the discussion of (the current draft of) his brand new concept for STATUS CONFIRMATION (in principle not for "life-and-death", but for "territory" immediately, as I understand the "new" in it).

The average go player will assume the "ko-rule" to be something like
"White must not recapture a Black stone immediately, which captured a White stone in the shape of a ko just before."

In Gérard's introduction it is clearly stated that he excluded the concept of super-ko from the very beginning for his proposal.

Life In 19x19

GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule

Re: GT territory rule