Life In 19x19

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:15 am**

Well, I'm not very much stronger than you, but I think I've solved this. (And have just seen Marcus' solution, which I am happy to report is the same as mine.) For a hint, I would say the following:

You're clearly 1 liberty short to do this by the direct route (take away one of your opponents' liberties), so the usual next thing to think of is either to increase one's own liberties, or to do so indirectly by making it so that one's opponent needs an extra (approach) move before he can capture you. Once you've come up with a plausible move of this type, it becomes just a reading exercise (not too hard a one, but my reading isn't that great so it still took me a little while to check).

By the way, as it's my first post in this thread - good luck in your goal; I have set myself the same goal (looks like we started playing at the same sort of time), but unlike you I don't have a set study plan for it. I'm sure you can achieve it :tmbup:

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:02 am**

Thanks for the hints. Managed to find the move Marcus' solution was correct. That's 321Go done. I guess I'll crack open the GGPFB books over the weekend.

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:36 am**

Felt utterly lost from about move 10 onwards. My opponent managed to make the board an absolute mess and beat me in every fight that came out of that chaos.

[sgf-full]http://files.gokgs.com/games/2010/10/15/suna2002-S1NK.sgf[/sgf-full]

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:24 am**

You are definitely getting better.

Just a few comments below.

White's moves are not typical of course, but probably a playable strategy in a handi game. In the opening, white makes a few looks, 3-space jumps. When you see that, don't be afraid to attack where you are strong.

14 - I think making a base and protecting the corner straight away may be better here. Once your stones have a base, you can attack white's F3 stones. You aren't splitting white with this move, so it probably just makes him stronger.

20 - A good move, and you understandably don't want to let W keep pushing you around. But your D4 stones aren't settled yet; I think C3 is more important here.

26 - W is keeping things complicated. Just take the corner with B17 and settle your group. Your corner would be pretty big.

42 - I like the attitude of this move. Granted, I wish Q4 was a bit stronger. Still, I like black in this fight.

46 - Very, VERY common mistake, even among 9kyus or so. Remember: When white invades the 3-3 after playing the approach move at R6, simply extend (here, P4)--don't hane.

90 - Yes, we've all done this in a life and death problem - you aren't starting a ko, of course, unless you already have a black stone at T10

.

138 - Of course you know bad things happened here. But check out the shape. When you see the "elephant eye" shape with B5 and D7, connect.

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:43 am**

judicata wrote:46 - Very, VERY common mistake, even among 9kyus or so. Remember: When white invades the 3-3 after playing the approach move at R6, simply extend (here, P4)--don't hane.

Is this always the case or just here where his cutting stone is supported? I've been playing pretty much this joseki since I started:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 8 played at a or b depending on surrounding stones $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . $$ | . a 1 3 4 6 . . . $$ | . . . . 5 7 b . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

I'm pretty sure I got this from sensei's library but I've always been concerned with how cuttable the move at b and how a allows extension with 9 at b. What should I be thinking before I play 4?

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:57 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Black then plays a $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . 8 0 . . . . . . $$ | . 7 4 O 6 . . . . $$ | . 9 3 5 . a . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

If there is no approach stone there, then this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 0 . . . . . . $$ | . 9 2 O . . . . . $$ | . . 1 3 4 6 8 . . $$ | . . . . 5 7 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

and finishes like this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . $$ | . X O O . . . . . $$ | . 1 X X O O O . . $$ | . . . . X X . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:03 pm**

SinK wrote:
judicata wrote:46 - Very, VERY common mistake, even among 9kyus or so. Remember: When white invades the 3-3 after playing the approach move at R6, simply extend (here, P4)--don't hane.

Is this always the case or just here where his cutting stone is supported? I've been playing pretty much this joseki since I started:

$$Bc 8 played at a or b depending on surrounding stones
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . .
$$ | . a 1 3 4 6 c . .
$$ | . . . . 5 7 b . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 8 played at a or b depending on surrounding stones $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . $$ | . a 1 3 4 6 c . . $$ | . . . . 5 7 b . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

I'm pretty sure I got this from sensei's library but I've always been concerned with how cuttable the move at b and how a allows extension with 9 at b. What should I be thinking before I play 4?

That's right - I should've used a diagram, but didn't have time. That is what I meant by the invasion "after playing the approach move." If there's no approach move, the hane at 4 is often best.

EDIT: And what move at b? You're right - there is a potentially bad cut if white plays at b. In the diagram, white should extend to c (I modified your diagram). If black then extends to b (usually a mistake) white should happily let black keep crawling on the second line, while white gets nice and thick. White shouldn't worry about playing 'a' for now.

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:07 pm**

Edit: Darn, Red beat me to it. Well, I'm going to go ahead and post mine too, as it goes into slightly more explanation of the ideas.
Edit edit: Okay, Judicata also beat me to it. I type like molasses. And molasses uses hunt&peck...

First, a reminder: these, because of the nature of joseki, are not the only way to deal with the invasion. This is just the simplest way, which is why it's nice to look at them and try to understand why they work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc When supported $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . B a . . . . . $$ | . 6 8 . . . b . . $$ | . 5 2 O 4 . . . . $$ | . 7 1 3 C 9 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

When your opponent has the :bc:

stone, 4 is important (as opposed to playing the circled hane). Otherwise, you're a bit low on liberties, and cuts can start a big fight that may potentially be really bad for you. After this sequence, 'a' and 'b' are common followups. 'a' helps stability and safety, while 'b' is wider in scale and threatens to attach to the right of 9, which goes a long way towards sealing black into the corner entirely.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc When unsupported $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . . $$ | . 8 . . . . . . . $$ | . 7 O O . . . . . $$ | . 9 X 1 2 4 6 . . $$ | . . . . 3 5 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

First, 'a' is required (or something like it), I just ran out of numbers. Here, because the trapped black doesn't have support outside, you have enough liberties to hane. As far as 4 and 6 go, they're very important, or else black could get up and out. Additionally, the wall you build with 4 and 6 is FAR more useful than the two points gained by 3 and 5 (black just needs the eyespace). As a result, if black wants to keep pushing on the second long, definitely keep pushing ahead.

I recommend you take a board, and play these out a couple of times in a row. Look at the alternatives, and try to understand why each move is played where it is, instead of elsewhere. If you can't figure out specific moves, feel free to ask here. Later tonight or tomorrow, try it again from memory. If you can't remember the moves, try it again from the beginning. While I'm not big on memorizing joseki, this is one of very few that I forced myself to ingrain, and I don't regret it. In addition to making sure you don't frutratingly lose every other invasion you attempt, it's a nice start for understanding corner life and death problems. If you understand , for example, that black takes 5 in the second diagram so that white cannot get it in sente, you can recognize similar situations, and perhaps get a few extra sente moves.

Here's a homework assignment for you. Set up the first diagram on a board, or picture it in your head. As I said, white protects at 'a'. Why there, instead of defending the cut at E4? Either that cut isn't scary, or the stone at 'a' defends both cuts. Can you figure out how to shut down a cut at E4 after the joseki? Here's your hint:

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:14 pm**

for chew (and anyone else who doesn't want to solve his problem):

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:26 pm**

Shaddy:

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:29 pm**

Chew Terr wrote:Edit: Darn, Red beat me to it. Well, I'm going to go ahead and post mine too, as it goes into slightly more explanation of the ideas.
Edit edit: Okay, Judicata also beat me to it. I type like molasses. And molasses uses hunt&peck...

Yeah, but you have more explanation. The OP could skip mine and Red's posts and just read yours.

Posted: **Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:35 pm**

Many people have added notes, but here's my own little mini thing.

There are a couple of interesting thoughts concerning the hane at :b46:

, but first a quick note on your last diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 8 played at a or b depending on surrounding stones $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . $$ | . a 1 3 4 6 c . . $$ | . . . . 5 7 b . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

b is wrong. It should be at c. Here's the joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 3-3 invasion part 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 0 . . . . . . . $$ | . 9 2 O . . . . . $$ | . . 1 3 4 6 8 . . $$ | . . . . 5 7 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 3-3 invasion part 2 $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . $$ | . X O O . . . . . $$ | . 1 X X O O O . . $$ | . . . . X X b . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

To understand why playing b instead of :w8:

is correct, we should examine why it is necessary to play :w12:

. Suppose we omit :w12:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 3-3 white 12 omitted, variaton 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | 9 3 6 . . . . . . $$ | 4 O 5 7 . . . . . $$ | . X O O 8 . . . . $$ | . 1 X X O O O . . $$ | . . . . X X b . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 3-3 white 12 omitted, variaton 2 $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 7 . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 4 . . . . . . $$ | 5 O 6 . . . . . . $$ | . X O O . . . . . $$ | . 1 X X O O O . . $$ | . . . . X X b . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

Without the defense of :w12:

, Black can clamp and escape. White will have to struggle to keep Black contained.

With that being said, why is this important for understanding :w8:

? Let's look.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 3-3 invasion part 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 0 . . . . . . . $$ | . 9 2 O . . . . . $$ | . . 1 3 4 6 . . . $$ | . . . . 5 7 8 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 3-3 invasion part 2 $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . $$ | . X O O a . 7 . . $$ | . 1 X X O O 5 6 . $$ | . . . . X X O 3 . $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . $$ --------------------[/go]

What we find out is that the clamp can be used on this side with a similar result. Because we must play :w12:

to defend, we don't want to leave a weakness for Black to take advantage of on the other end of our chain of White stones.

Now, on to the next topic:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 3-3 after Knight's approach, part 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . 8 0 . . . . . . $$ | . 7 4 O 6 . . . . $$ | . 9 3 5 a . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 3-3 after Knight's approach, part 2 $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . 2 . . $$ | . X O O W . . . . $$ | . X X X a 1 3 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

I won't go into all the details on this joseki, but this is one possible variation. The point in question is why :w6:

(also marked :wc:

) is not at a. You saw the result in your game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 3-3 after Knight's approach, tricked? $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . b 4 O a . . . . $$ | . 7 3 5 6 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

With

in place, Black uses :b7:

to strengthen his group before attacking at the cut at a. The idea is that White will play at b to try and keep Black surrounded. You did this in your game. You have another option ... play at a yourself.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 3-3 after Knight's approach, maybe not tricked $$ | . . B . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 9 4 O 8 . . . . $$ | . 7 3 5 6 . . W . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

In the game, you had a stone already where :wc:

is in the above diagram (and your opponent had a stion where :bc:

is ). So, for you this sequence would end up with your sente, as your group is safe. Black's corner isn't really all that big, and the shape isn't great for him.

There are a couple more variations that are interesting. Suppose :wc:

above was one space higher?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 3-3 after Knight's approach, Black forgot about surrounding stones, part 1 $$ | . . B . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 8 4 O 9 . . W . $$ | . 7 3 5 6 0 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 3-3 after Knight's approach, Black forgot about surrounding stones, part 2 $$ | . . B . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 2 4 6 . . $$ | . O O O X 3 5 W . $$ | . X X X O O 7 9 0 $$ | . . . . . . 8 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

catches Black in a ladder ... disaster for Black!

One more variation, which might be useful to know:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 3-3 after Knight's approach, different punishment, part 1 $$ | . . B . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . 8 0 . . . . . . $$ | . 7 4 O . . . . . $$ | . 9 3 5 6 . . W . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 3-3 after Knight's approach, different punishment, part 2 $$ | . . B . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . @ @ . 5 . . . . $$ | . X @ @ 3 4 . . . $$ | . X X X O 1 . W . $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

Here, White has caused himself grief with his :ws:

stones in trouble. The better way to defend:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 3-3 after Knight's approach, different punishment, part 2 $$ | . . B . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . . . . $$ | . X O O 4 2 . . . $$ | . X X X O 1 . W . $$ | . . . . 3 5 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

This is a bit subtle, but is highlighted when :wc:

is sitting there ... let's add :wc:

to the result of what's considered joseki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 3-3 after Knight's approach, later reduction $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . . . . $$ | . X O O W . . . . $$ | . X X X 2 X . W . $$ | . . . 4 1 3 5 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

Now,

isn't supposed to be played immediately, but is something you have as a reduction later. In the previous diagram, Black has removed this weakness.

There are many, many variations of the 3-3 invasion. It's something that I think deserves some study from time to time for most DDK and even SDK players.

Posted: **Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:33 pm**

This is great. Thanks guys for taking the time to explain all this stuff to me. I think I'm gonna have to go over it a few time to make sure it all sinks in.

Posted: **Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:39 pm**

I've lost some traction over the last few days and have found it quite hard to make myself play. I'm hoping tonights teaching game with Marcus will get me back into the groove.

Tomorrow I will definitely start back up on the puzzles. Definitely.

Posted: **Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:45 pm**

SinK wrote:I've lost some traction over the last few days and have found it quite hard to make myself play. I'm hoping tonights teaching game with Marcus will get me back into the groove.

Tomorrow I will definitely start back up on the puzzles. Definitely.

Suggestion: if you don't feel like playing, don't play. Taking breaks is important and making yourself play when you don't want to can be counterproductive.

Life In 19x19

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