Teamovitch #1

[topazg]

FWIW, and not knowing the answer to your questions for obvious reasons, I'm quite happy with you doing as you see fit. If you give away too much, the experience may or may not be as educational for the soldiers. If you give away too little, the experience may or may not be as educational for the soldiers. Trying too hard to match the other captain I think will be a detriment to just doing what you think is the most informative way of posting. Game balance isn't that important for a game like this

EDIT: Was going to add "Besides, the more help you give them, the more sweet our victory will be", then decided against it, then thought I'd put it in anyway

[kokomi]

I have a request for observers.

I'm finding it tricky to tread the path between not saying anything, and naming specific continuations. It is very difficult to say exactly why a move might be good or bad without talking about the moves that follow. I can't always appeal to principles. If I do it too much, I might be giving our team an unfair advantage. But 'too much' is relative to how much Topazg is doing.

I'd like one or more observers to ( publicly? privately? ) tell Topazg and I if we are doing about the same / less / more discussion of future continuations compared to the other captain.

Thanks
-JB

tough request. read through the thread again. I would say move 2 and move 3, the captains are giving more or less the same amount of instruction.

[Joaz Banbeck]

To observers:

...Trying too hard to match the other captain I think will be a detriment to just doing what you think is the most informative way of posting. Game balance isn't that important for a game like this ...

I disagree with this, so at least tell me. Whether or not you tell Topazg is up to you.


@Kokomi: Thank you.

[tj86430]

My suggestion for white:

$$c
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm trying to suggest something more conventional, but the game is already so unconventional, that I don't know what would be best. I like this more than the other 3-4 though. 4-4 would of course be a safe choice.

[topazg]

$$Wcm4
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$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For the team:

Well, I nearly decided to take TJ's suggestion, as something as standard and conventional as a 3-4 might be a delicate balance to the interesting-ness going on elsewhere. I am especially happy with the side as Black's not got a great reason to want to approach it from the side presented to him, and I therefore much prefer it to the other 3-4 up there (where the approach works nicely with the 4-4 in the top right). However, there are other valid approaches too, such as approaching low which seems fine to me.

As a result, I want a game where we can't possibly fall back on complacency, and something a bit different is what I want to aim for. I've gone against redundant's 5-3 because a) we already have two of them , and b) because I don't actually like giving Black the approach sides from the top. I'm sure it's fine really, but even though the approach at E16 is locally good for White, it works better with his 4-4 than the similar approach in the lower right does with his 5-3. As a result, it's making me squirm a bit.

Chew's 5-4 I really can't get my head around how it will work out at all, but it's going to create a big influential game that sounds kinda fun, and walking into the deep abyss is a great way of getting those Go neurons firing.

No-one wanted to offer the shimari in the lower right (which I wasn't keen on anyway), or an approach move in the lower left (which could be interesting, but perhaps poorly timed right now). Interestingly, I would probably have chosen the top left hoshi if it was my choice, simply because the simple balance it leaves a) gives me a better choice of approaches in the lower left, and b) doesn't seem to give Black the chance to force the direction of play anywhere other than the lower right, which I already have a few plans in mind for. However, I'm happy enough with this

[Jedo]

Suggestion for black move 5:

Hmm, we have a very interesting position here:

$$Wcm4
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's latest move seems questionable to me, according to direction of play. The new 5-4 stone leans towards D10, as does our shimari in the lower left if we make one.

$$Wcm4
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$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . a . . . . . 3 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . a . . . . . 3 . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This means that now us getting 7 is terrible for white, as it is the direciton that both of our stones on the left side want to go. Next white may choose between a b c or d, but all of these are gote and result in us getting either a or b ourselves. It's possible for white to prevent this by splitting right away:

$$Wcm4
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4
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$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However if this happens than we just approach the lower right as shown. this is an ideal approach for us and will be difficult for white to answer. Furthermore we still have points such as a to aim at. Therefore, although approaching the lower right immediately is certainly tempting, my suggestion is to enclose:

$$Wcm4
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[Joaz Banbeck]

For observers:

EDIT: and teammates

According to Yang's principles mentioned earlier, there are no first class moves left, but three second class moves: kakari or shimari in asymetrical corner.
For a tie-breaker, I pulled out a ruler ( shown here in red circles ) to get an idea of where the biggest oba is.
Three of the four sides are 11, one is 10. So, prior to doing any reading, I have a slight preference for the top left and the bottom left because they are at the intersections of 11-open-space sides. The lower right trails very closely with one of 11 and one of 10.

$$Wcm4
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . , C C C C C C C C C C C X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . , . . . . . , C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . C . C C C C C C C C C C C . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , C C C C C C C C C C C X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . , . . . . . , C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . C . C C C C C C C C C C C . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[emeraldemon]

Observers only:

I found exactly 1 match for this fuseki in GoGoD, Maedi Nobuaki 6d vs Hashimoto Utaro 6d in 1938. Here are the first 10 moves of that game:

$$ Position at move 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 8 . 6 . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . 7 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 8 . 6 . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . 7 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm curious to see how closely the game follows this path...

[fwiffo]

My suggestion for move 5:

$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Actually, I agree with Jedo's analysis completely and would play his move in a game. To add to that, a territorial move like finishing a shimari makes sense to me in a cross fuseki, since it's harder to make use of influence oriented stones to build a big moyo.

But to give the general some options, I am picking this. It's consistent with the orientation of our southwest stone. If white approaches that corner, we'll get influence facing the bottom side, and this stone will work well with that.

[emeraldemon]

because I like playing with the pro database, here's some stats on this unusual fuseki:

Move = number plays / total = percentage
1 = 27528/51716 = 53%
2 = 148/27528 = 0.5%
3 = 1/148 = 0.7%
4 = 1/1 = 100%

I was surprised to find the 3-5 is so rare: for move 2 it's even less popular than 3-3. For move 3 in this position it is similarly rare, although the sample size is much smaller. Of course, the fact that a move isn't played much by pros doesn't necessarily make it bad, especially for amateurs. My guess is most mistakes at this stage tend to be washed away by the midgame...

[Jordus]

suggestion for Move 5

$$Bcm5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c b 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c b 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Jedos move seems like a done deal... and fwiffo suggested play in the other corner, so I decided why not throw out an interesting move in the other corner... 4-5 openings are foreign to me and 3-5 I seldom see... so what better move to attack the corner with then those rare and interesting 3-5's... i also thought maybe mirroring their 4-5 (a) would be interesting, but I don't like the complications it causes.... the 3-4 at (b) seems small and dangerous.. they say 3-3 at (c) is the safe bet for a corner... but seems very small... and possibly gote.. More than likely we will be going with Jedo's move and finishing the shimari...

[Joaz Banbeck]

For observers and teammates:

$$Bc a amd b are classic joseki
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . a , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc a amd b are classic joseki
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . a , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|[/go]

This is joseki? Ok, maybe it is if black really wants to emphasize the lower side while giving up the corner. But we don't have enough on the lower side to make it worth more than the corner. If we had several more stones there, then 3 works like this:

$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . O . . |
$$ B B . . . . , . . . |
$$ . ? ? ? ? 1 . 2 . . |
$$ . ? ? ? ? . . . . . |
$$ . ? ? ? ? . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . O . . |
$$ B B . . . . , . . . |
$$ . ? ? ? ? 1 . 2 . . |
$$ . ? ? ? ? . . . . . |
$$ . ? ? ? ? . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|[/go]

When we don't have the lower side, let's look at the obvious continuation. It's a free corner; white would be a fool not to take it.

$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|[/go]

Black can make the obvious 2-space stabilizing move, like this:

$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . ? ? |
$$ . . 3 . . 1 . 2 ? ? |
$$ . . . ? ? . . . . ? |
$$ . . . ? ? . . . . ? |
$$ --------------------|

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . ? ? |
$$ . . 3 . . 1 . 2 ? ? |
$$ . . . ? ? . . . . ? |
$$ . . . ? ? . . . . ? |
$$ --------------------|[/go]

...in which case he gets less terrirory than white...

and white has an easy attack:

$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ 4 . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ 4 . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|[/go]

I agree with Fwiffo: I like the previous suggestion better.

[fwiffo]

For teammates and observers.

Actually, it was a misclick. I meant a.

[Joaz Banbeck]

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For observers and teammates:

@teammmates: now that all three of you have made your suggestions, you can read my comments here: viewtopic.php?p=37639#p37639

suggestion for Move 5

$$Bcm5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c b 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c b 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Jedo's move seems like a done deal...

No, it wasn't. Two people liked it, but I was hoping for 'b' in the above diagram. It is the move most able to directly contest the 5-4.

As mentioned in the post referenced above, I think that the two left corners are the most important by a tiny margin. I was hoping that there would be nominations for mainstream kaklari/shimari in both of them. Then I would start reading to see which had the best continuation.

But the 5-3 kakari under a 5-4 is again a move that emphasises the side.

$$Bc
$$ |------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . B . . B
$$ | . . . 4 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ |------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . B . . B
$$ | . . . 4 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Black gives white an easy corner, which according to proverb, is worth more than a side. It only works if black has a presence on the upper side such as the marked stones above to make the side worth more.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In summary: by strange coincidence, two of the suggestions are for obscure josekis ( or psuedosekis ) which require a stone or two on the neighboring side. Sadly, in both instances, we don't have those stones in place, and either way we would get an inferior result if our opponents simply played the obvious and natural continuation.

So that leaves only the other suggestion at C4. I'm not sure that it is the best move - I personally would have played D17 myself - but it is the only suggestion that does not have theoretical shortcomings.

EDIT: Oh dear, what to do? Fwiffo says that his was a mis-click. Uhhh...can you white players hold off until I look at it?

For observers and teammates:

Upon looking at the third suggestion, I'm not really happy with it either.
White can take his shimari with 1.
Our theoretically best play is to contest the last asymetric corner with 2 ( or the 3-3 )
White can play a standard joseki with 3
We would have to defend with 4
They continue with 5
We play joseki with 6
They get to restrict our shimari while playing joseki with 7
We have to play something like 8
They get a nice extension off of their shimari with 9
If we get something from our shimari with 10, they have sente
They probably play 'a'

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . 8 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . 8 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All white stones are perfoming to their theoretical maximum, whereas black's shimari is limited. And white has sente.

Maybe the 3-3 invasion is better. It is after midnight here. More later.

[tj86430]

Uhhh...can you white players hold off until I look at it?

Fine by me.

BTW, I just noticed that when I quote your message I can also see the hidden part. I didn't read it though, I just quickly deleted it from the quote.