FWIW, and not knowing the answer to your questions for obvious reasons, I'm quite happy with you doing as you see fit. If you give away too much, the experience may or may not be as educational for the soldiers. If you give away too little, the experience may or may not be as educational for the soldiers. Trying too hard to match the other captain I think will be a detriment to just doing what you think is the most informative way of posting. Game balance isn't that important for a game like this
EDIT: Was going to add "Besides, the more help you give them, the more sweet our victory will be", then decided against it, then thought I'd put it in anyway
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:35 am
by kokomi
Joaz Banbeck wrote:I have a request for observers.
I'm finding it tricky to tread the path between not saying anything, and naming specific continuations. It is very difficult to say exactly why a move might be good or bad without talking about the moves that follow. I can't always appeal to principles. If I do it too much, I might be giving our team an unfair advantage. But 'too much' is relative to how much Topazg is doing.
I'd like one or more observers to ( publicly? privately? ) tell Topazg and I if we are doing about the same / less / more discussion of future continuations compared to the other captain.
Thanks -JB
tough request. read through the thread again. I would say move 2 and move 3, the captains are giving more or less the same amount of instruction.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:58 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
To observers:
topazg wrote:...Trying too hard to match the other captain I think will be a detriment to just doing what you think is the most informative way of posting. Game balance isn't that important for a game like this ...
I disagree with this, so at least tell me. Whether or not you tell Topazg is up to you.
I'm trying to suggest something more conventional, but the game is already so unconventional, that I don't know what would be best. I like this more than the other 3-4 though. 4-4 would of course be a safe choice.
Well, I nearly decided to take TJ's suggestion, as something as standard and conventional as a 3-4 might be a delicate balance to the interesting-ness going on elsewhere. I am especially happy with the side as Black's not got a great reason to want to approach it from the side presented to him, and I therefore much prefer it to the other 3-4 up there (where the approach works nicely with the 4-4 in the top right). However, there are other valid approaches too, such as approaching low which seems fine to me.
As a result, I want a game where we can't possibly fall back on complacency, and something a bit different is what I want to aim for. I've gone against redundant's 5-3 because a) we already have two of them , and b) because I don't actually like giving Black the approach sides from the top. I'm sure it's fine really, but even though the approach at E16 is locally good for White, it works better with his 4-4 than the similar approach in the lower right does with his 5-3. As a result, it's making me squirm a bit.
Chew's 5-4 I really can't get my head around how it will work out at all, but it's going to create a big influential game that sounds kinda fun, and walking into the deep abyss is a great way of getting those Go neurons firing.
No-one wanted to offer the shimari in the lower right (which I wasn't keen on anyway), or an approach move in the lower left (which could be interesting, but perhaps poorly timed right now). Interestingly, I would probably have chosen the top left hoshi if it was my choice, simply because the simple balance it leaves a) gives me a better choice of approaches in the lower left, and b) doesn't seem to give Black the chance to force the direction of play anywhere other than the lower right, which I already have a few plans in mind for. However, I'm happy enough with this
White's latest move seems questionable to me, according to direction of play. The new 5-4 stone leans towards D10, as does our shimari in the lower left if we make one.
This means that now us getting 7 is terrible for white, as it is the direciton that both of our stones on the left side want to go. Next white may choose between a b c or d, but all of these are gote and result in us getting either a or b ourselves. It's possible for white to prevent this by splitting right away:
However if this happens than we just approach the lower right as shown. this is an ideal approach for us and will be difficult for white to answer. Furthermore we still have points such as a to aim at. Therefore, although approaching the lower right immediately is certainly tempting, my suggestion is to enclose:
According to Yang's principles mentioned earlier, there are no first class moves left, but three second class moves: kakari or shimari in asymetrical corner. For a tie-breaker, I pulled out a ruler ( shown here in red circles ) to get an idea of where the biggest oba is. Three of the four sides are 11, one is 10. So, prior to doing any reading, I have a slight preference for the top left and the bottom left because they are at the intersections of 11-open-space sides. The lower right trails very closely with one of 11 and one of 10.
$$Wcm4 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , C C C C C C C C C C C X . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . , . . . . . , C . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . C . C C C C C C C C C C C . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
Actually, I agree with Jedo's analysis completely and would play his move in a game. To add to that, a territorial move like finishing a shimari makes sense to me in a cross fuseki, since it's harder to make use of influence oriented stones to build a big moyo.
But to give the general some options, I am picking this. It's consistent with the orientation of our southwest stone. If white approaches that corner, we'll get influence facing the bottom side, and this stone will work well with that.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:37 pm
by emeraldemon
because I like playing with the pro database, here's some stats on this unusual fuseki:
Move = number plays / total = percentage 1 = 27528/51716 = 53% 2 = 148/27528 = 0.5% 3 = 1/148 = 0.7% 4 = 1/1 = 100%
I was surprised to find the 3-5 is so rare: for move 2 it's even less popular than 3-3. For move 3 in this position it is similarly rare, although the sample size is much smaller. Of course, the fact that a move isn't played much by pros doesn't necessarily make it bad, especially for amateurs. My guess is most mistakes at this stage tend to be washed away by the midgame...
Jedos move seems like a done deal... and fwiffo suggested play in the other corner, so I decided why not throw out an interesting move in the other corner... 4-5 openings are foreign to me and 3-5 I seldom see... so what better move to attack the corner with then those rare and interesting 3-5's... i also thought maybe mirroring their 4-5 (a) would be interesting, but I don't like the complications it causes.... the 3-4 at (b) seems small and dangerous.. they say 3-3 at (c) is the safe bet for a corner... but seems very small... and possibly gote.. More than likely we will be going with Jedo's move and finishing the shimari...
This is joseki? Ok, maybe it is if black really wants to emphasize the lower side while giving up the corner. But we don't have enough on the lower side to make it worth more than the corner. If we had several more stones there, then 3 works like this:
No, it wasn't. Two people liked it, but I was hoping for 'b' in the above diagram. It is the move most able to directly contest the 5-4.
As mentioned in the post referenced above, I think that the two left corners are the most important by a tiny margin. I was hoping that there would be nominations for mainstream kaklari/shimari in both of them. Then I would start reading to see which had the best continuation.
But the 5-3 kakari under a 5-4 is again a move that emphasises the side.
Black gives white an easy corner, which according to proverb, is worth more than a side. It only works if black has a presence on the upper side such as the marked stones above to make the side worth more.
In summary: by strange coincidence, two of the suggestions are for obscure josekis ( or psuedosekis ) which require a stone or two on the neighboring side. Sadly, in both instances, we don't have those stones in place, and either way we would get an inferior result if our opponents simply played the obvious and natural continuation.
So that leaves only the other suggestion at C4. I'm not sure that it is the best move - I personally would have played D17 myself - but it is the only suggestion that does not have theoretical shortcomings.
EDIT: Oh dear, what to do? Fwiffo says that his was a mis-click. Uhhh...can you white players hold off until I look at it?
For observers and teammates:
Upon looking at the third suggestion, I'm not really happy with it either. White can take his shimari with 1. Our theoretically best play is to contest the last asymetric corner with 2 ( or the 3-3 ) White can play a standard joseki with 3 We would have to defend with 4 They continue with 5 We play joseki with 6 They get to restrict our shimari while playing joseki with 7 We have to play something like 8 They get a nice extension off of their shimari with 9 If we get something from our shimari with 10, they have sente They probably play 'a'
