Life In 19x19

John Fairbairn wrote:Most of us are perfectly capable of using what you might call fuzzy lists.

Even I:)

The items we do specifiy are specified for emphasis.

Exactly, and (c) is that important, IMO.

RobertJasiek wrote:

John Fairbairn wrote:The book title on the front and back cover is actually "Fundamental Principles of Go".

I would be convinced by your reason but apparently there are at least two editions of the book. Here is a reference for the edition with the title having the definite article:

http://www.slateandshell.com/images/items/SSYY006.gif

Interesting, my copy doesn't have the "The."

RobertJasiek wrote:there are at least two editions of the book...

...and therefore we should resolve the ambiguity by assuming full authorial intent behind the one that is most convenient!

Alot of carpal tunnel has been in the works on this forum over the value of proverbs, principles, heuristic studies, ect. in helping to improve ones go playing ability. It has been my experience that these are of little help when in the throws of a tough match. I'm usually far too focused on making the wrong move to think about Davies' Attack and Defense. I do believe that study in these areas are incredibly valuable, as they may give us some context to help understand our mistakes, which are ultimately the best teachers in go. Theory study I think can only pay off if one studies his own games thoroughly.

Theory knowledge is best absorbed (weeks) before the crucial games start. Then hopefully one can apply the knowledge as second nature during those games.

John Fairbairn wrote:I used to latch on to pithy sayings such as Go Seigen saying, "The corners are always biggest". My equivalent of the school of hard knocks, playing over his actual games, led to me retort, "Oh yeah, so why don't you follow your own advice?" I'm not sure that it would be an exaggeration to say that every piece of opening or middle-game strategy advice I've ever seen comes somewhere with either an exception or a caveat. So, now, pithy sayings just wash over me.

I believe what you're referring to is something called the "5 levels of mastery" or the Dreyfus model of skill acquisition. At the basic/1st level, someone would understand the rules. At the middle levels, someone would understand the concepts and the strategies. At the most advanced level, a player "transcends a reliance on rules, guidelines, and maxims." That's why Go Seigen didn't follow his own advice. He had a much deeper understanding of the game and he knew when it was time to ignore the proverbs and the other pithy sayings.

Here's a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_model_of_skill_acquisition

Scrivener wrote: when it was time to ignore the proverbs

Always proverbs might have to be either applied or not.

RobertJasiek wrote:
Always proverbs might have to be either applied or not.

Now that's a proverb to remember...

I think it's a good book, but its value depends on a little bit on whether you've been exposed to Mr. Yang's ideas before. I'd already read his books "Whole Board Thinking in Joseki" and many of his workshop notes, and I'd seen him give lectures in person and online as well, all before this book was published. I think it summarizes his teaching very well, but I didn't see much that was new compared to what he'd already taught before, but that's fine and I think it's great that the book is out there. If you read this book first, what he says in lectures and other books will make more sense.

The approach is a little didactic, and I think it can come off as being overly presciptive to some, especially to those who think that the first four moves can be played anywhere above the second line. I don't think he is trying to propose a comprehensive view of how to play go. It's more that he is introducing one way of thinking that is self-consistent and not hard to learn. I think it's great for players who feel lost in the opening and want some heuristics to use to choose better moves. He knows that most amateurs in the West don't have the time or inclination to learn zillions of josekis and opening patterns. Just consider the question: how to choose a pincer? This is not an easy question to answer. Probably a lot of players choose for the wrong reasons. Maybe they choose ones they've studied more, even if they are not best for the board position. Maybe they choose randomly. Or maybe they choose with optimistic reading: "if my opponent plays one of the 3 josekis I'm thinking about right now, I'm still okay..." Maybe they play what they've seen in a recent pro game, without really having thought about it. But at least his system gives you some things to consider that you might overlook otherwise.

If you learn and use such a system, at least you'll be able to explain your moves. That doesn't mean you'll make good moves, but at least you'll have reasons and be able to remember your games better.

snorri wrote:Just consider the question: how to choose a pincer?

Humorous aside. I am reminded of Lockett's Law, by Bud Lockett of Los Alamos, NM.

Always extend an even number of spaces. That way your opponent will not know where to invade.

kirkmc wrote:

RobertJasiek wrote:
Always proverbs might have to be either applied or not.

Now that's a proverb to remember...

And then to apply... or not.

RobertJasiek wrote:

John Fairbairn wrote:The book title on the front and back cover is actually "Fundamental Principles of Go".

I would be convinced by your reason but apparently there are at least two editions of the book. Here is a reference for the edition with the title having the definite article:

http://www.slateandshell.com/images/items/SSYY006.gif

Note that the Chinese language does not contain the definitive article. It is very possible that the subtle difference between "Fundamental Principles" and "The Fundamental Principles" was completely lost on a Chinese native like Mr. Yang. In Chinese, those titles would be rendered identical, and you would have to specifically add "some" or "all" in order to make a similar distinction. Given John's argument that the preface refers only to "various principles", I think the interpretation that the book handles some, rather than all, fundamental principles is more likely.

PS: So, as John's little grandson would be told when he disrespects his teacher, say sorry to Mr Yang

Well, OK, Sorry Mr. Yang.

Here's what prompted me to agree with Robert's comment.

I bought Yang's Fundamental Principles of Go about a year ago, when I was about 8k. I was very eager at the time to find out what in fact the fundamental principles of go were. Well, frankly, I was disappointed that there were only 5 chapters.

The first one ranks opening moves, and the principles seemed hardly earth-shattering. The second, Relationships and Combinations seems to say that one should efficiently sprinkle one's stones about the board - some high, some low. As you perhaps suspect, part of my problem with the book is that I don't understand anything about go.

The third chapter - Effective use of Joseki - helps one pick the right approach moves and pincers. On re-reading, now that I know more than 3 josekis, (Yang suggests that an amateur need know only some 300 fundamental variations), I am starting to see that the principles this chapter presents are indeed fundamental.

The principles entailed in Chapter 4, on Invasions and Reductions, didn't sink in. This is probably because my reading is too poor to put the principles into effect.

The last chapter details invasions of 10 specific formations. This chapter seems less about fundamental principles and more about specific sequences. Again, this probably reflects my lack of understanding.

In any case, it seemed to me that a book with the title Fundamental Principles of Go should have more chapters and cover more subjects, such as: principles of attack and defense, principles of cross-cut fights, principles of sacrificing stones, principles of timing, principles of counting, principles of ko - just to mention a few. I guess that all that would fill up at least another book, but now that I've apologized, maybe Mr. Yang will consider writing the sequel.

Yang has written six books in his Workshop Lectures series. Each book is short, and has about 4 "chapters," each of which was given at a workshop. They cover a wide variety of topics, and, taken together, may cover much of what you want.

As for the cross-cut, there's a very good Slate & Shell book on the subject that made me really understand this technique. (Really is perhaps an exaggeration, but I understand it more than most players I use it on.)

I just got this book recently so I thought I'd add a few comments as I'm reading through it. The first and second chapters are very good at helping develop a method for evaluating opening and early middle game moves, which I am finding very helpful, but a few of the problems I found myself completely wrong on. I guess I need to read them again.
The joseki chapter is what I'm working on at the moment. I find that it is a very good introduction to the strategies involving different approaches and pincers. This I think is very helpful in giving a more solid grounding to that which most Kyu players probably just play by more intuition than anything else.