new low

[xed_over]

It seems like many want to blame the ease and availability of internet play as the major cause of the decline in national organizations and local clubs. But I wonder if there's not another major dynamic at play.

I feel that personality conflicts and poor communication both among the leaders of the organization and to/from its membership at large may be an even larger contributor to the decline.

I often hear of people who quit or even refuse to help because something is not going their way, or they are otherwise dissatisfied with how things are going.

There will always be differences of opinions, but we've got to learn to work together in spite of those differences -- or maybe even because of those differences.

And if the current membership can't get along, it'll be a really hard sell to any potential new members.

[RobertJasiek]

BGA Rules and beginners: If taught 1:1 to beginners, they might find them a bit overloaded. If just their Area Scoring is taught as simple rules, then that is an ideal tool.

Online go: So much more easily accessed than going to a club. However, real boards and tournaments are the real fun. An association must convey that joy of good playing material and better reading at it. Tournaments should also create a great social experience. We are not all internet refugees yet, aren't we? Clubs, tournaments and associations have their chance! It requires a lively scene of active players though.

[Javaness]

Peter Wendes is the only person who I can think of currently extolling the benefits of Go's educational nature to the general public. He's generated a lot of awareness of the game by doing this, but no spark has yet lit the flame. I am not sure if he points out that it is challenging, or if he points out that it is easy. Go is both of these, which makes it quite special.

I remember Paul Smith put together a presentation that showed that the public perceived Go as being very complicated, which put people off learning the game. This would probably explain the approach taken by the BGA, but if you want to recruit people who can be expected to comprise the talent of the next generation, it seems necessary to state the depths. Otherwise you present it as some tin of beans by Andy Warhol

Go can quite easily, although perhaps with tongue in cheek occasionally, be sold as useful in enhancing calculating ability, decision making, long-term planning, concentration, awareness of other cultures, and health (e.g. delaying mental degradation). If these sorts of pitches are made to parents, company training sections, people who run old people's homes, etc., a BGA-type organisation would be needed to attend to the resulting enquiries. We have one, and that's a good start, but the information we offer is currently of the wrong sort, so changes of attitude and structure would still be needed.

For this model to work, the focus of BGA activity would in fact need to change drastically, to parents and opinion formers and away from students and children (who may, nevertheless, be the main beneficiaries). It would, however, be the parents and so on who take the lead in organising, or at least demanding, local activities. They may choose not to do this in club form, but by hiring teachers.

[Javaness]

That sounds like a BGA dream, forcing students to learn to play Go before they can come to university I

I think Go clubs are the most important part of the BGA, if membership were taken from them, and not nationally, I think that membership would increase.

I also note that Go clubs seem to have a place in Universities.

I have no particular agenda to further Go BUT we will be using Go as an induction activity for 200 odd first year students next year (they will be asked to learn Go before they come to Uni, then at the end of the first week we will hold a competition with a Goban as a prize). Dry runs with an altered DGS are encouraging and I already have a number of initiated and keen geeks.. (who I need to train in order to count)

Possibly a University online league (need to find champions) might be something that the BGA might get involved with... Injecting young blood might be fruitful..

[richardamullens]

Tournament Entrants 20100101-20110115 by country:-

This is approximate information because of the way players are dropped from the rating list after 6 months, 12 months or 2 years if they have not played in a tournament in that time.

DE 1099 Germany
FR 952 France
RU 689 Russian Federation
RO 421 Romania
UK 337 UK
NL 337 Netherlands
TR 228 Turkey
PL 226 Poland
FI 218 Finland
CZ 213 Czech Republic
ES 174 Spain
UA 189 Ukraine
IT 178 Italy
SE 128 Sweden
CH 114 Switzerland
HU 092 Hungary
AT 084 Austria
BE 076 Belgium
SK 058 Slovakia
LT 053 Lithuania
SI 049 Slovenia
RS 048 Serbia
IL 039 Israel
HR 043 Croatia
DK 034 Denmark
IE 034 Ireland
NO 030 Norway
BA 016 Bosnia
CY 014 Cyprus
BG 013 Bulgaria
PT 012 Portugal
EE 009 Estonia
GR 005 Greece
LU 004 Luxembourg
BY 003 Belarus
AZ 002 Azerbaijan
AM 001 Armenia
LV 001 Latvia

Found by grep [A-Z]10 AllEuro.txt |grep UK|wc
grep [A-Z]11 AllEuro.txt |grep UK|wc
Then summing

If the Netherlands really has c. 800 members then they are doing proportionately better than the UK at 487 for 2010.

The big surprise to me is Turkey

[John Fairbairn]

I remember Paul Smith put together a presentation that showed that the public perceived Go as being very complicated, which put people off learning the game.

This was his ICOB paper. But as I understood it, it was his take on a survey of existing games players. What the respondents were saying is that go was too hard for them to devote their already spoken-for time to it. I had first-hand experience of George Hodges trying to get chess players take up shogi. The typical view was well put by one grandmaster: I already devote my life to one form of chess - why should I take up another that will require the same devotion?

The people the BGA should hope to get are people who don't yet have a hobby or who are between hobbies. Peter Wendes does a brilliant job of fomenting interest among young people. Again as I understand it, he doesn't stress the challenging side of go, at least with children. I think he stresses more things like increasing awareness of other cultures. That all seems entirely appropriate at that age level.

I have wondered whether the apparent lack of take-up from Peter and Shiela's efforts is simply hidden (children keep on playing in school but don't interact with the outside world) and/or whether what is available in the outside world just doesn't fit what the children expect. Going from Hikaru no Go to a bunch of grumpy old men in the BGA may be a step too far. I remember as a child chess player there were books written by people like Fred Reinfeld that catered specially for young people who knew the rules and basics such as "control the centre" but wanted to take the next step. I can't remember precise details, but I do recall being thrilled at being introduced to things like The Immortal Game, The Evergreen Game, and so on. Go seems to lack this sort of in-between book in English.

[kirkmc]

Going from Hikaru no Go to a bunch of grumpy old men in the BGA may be a step too far.

LOL.

I remember as a child chess player there were books written by people like Fred Reinfeld that catered specially for young people who knew the rules and basics such as "control the centre" but wanted to take the next step. I can't remember precise details, but I do recall being thrilled at being introduced to things like The Immortal Game, The Evergreen Game, and so on. Go seems to lack this sort of in-between book in English.

Bobby Fischer teaches chess was the one that got me interested. It was a small-sized, mass-market paperback which you read one way, with problems and answers, then turned the book around and started from the back. (I actually still have a copy.) It didn't get me interested enough in chess to go any further than the occasional game, but I know it did have that effect on a lot of young people at the time. (I was around ten or so.)

[RobertJasiek]

I don't buy it that only specific groups of people might become interested in Go. Rather different groups have shown to develop interest:

- chess / shogi / xianqi players
- gamers in general
- maths type students
- East Asian culture interested people
- people fascinated by the deep strategic complexity
- people initially deceived by "easy to learn" and later learning to love the strategic richness
etc.

Therefore always any targeted group must receive specific PR. How to approach the general public? Throw carrots of all types! :)

[kirkmc]

I wonder if there's been any concerted efforts to get in touch with the growing board game communities in different countries. The board games they play are different, but some of those people may find go interesting.

[mohsart]

I wonder if there's been any concerted efforts to get in touch with the growing board game communities in different countries. The board games they play are different, but some of those people may find go interesting.

I try to visit most relevant conventions held in Sweden with a board to teach/demonstrate Go and a small batch of books and equipment for sale.

/Mats

[John Fairbairn]

I wonder if there's been any concerted efforts to get in touch with the growing board game communities in different countries. The board games they play are different, but some of those people may find go interesting.

It is already widely known that they find it "interesting". The problem seems to be that they are not prepared to take it up because they realise at once that it is so deep that they (a) can't devote the necessary time to it without giving up other games, and (b) they can't make meaningful discoveries themselves as the game has been already well analysed. The people for whom the latter point matters seem instead to use go just as a springboard to invent variants.

To attract the sort of people who will devote themselves both to go and the social side of the game outside the internet (the sort the BGA is probably meant for) more targeted focus is probably necessary.

[tapir]

A minor issue, but for visitors in the UK an updated list of clubs and contacts would be welcome. That is as opposed to a list of former clubs not meeting anymore. (Look for London clubs in the alphabetical list.)

On popularity/publicity: One shouldn't take one for the other. Films like "Pi" or "The beautiful mind" may have increased publicity, while scaring off thousands from taking up the game.

[richardamullens]

A minor issue, but for visitors in the UK an updated list of clubs and contacts would be welcome. That is as opposed to a list of former clubs not meeting anymore. (Look for London clubs in the alphabetical list.)

Do you have a particular entry in mind ?
It does seem that the information regarding the Nippon club meeting on Friday is, I believe, out of date. That is now replaced by the London City club.

I found a similar problem some years ago when I visited the Calais and Pau clubs - nobody there !

[Javaness]

A minor issue, but for visitors in the UK an updated list of clubs and contacts would be welcome. That is as opposed to a list of former clubs not meeting anymore. (Look for London clubs in the alphabetical list.)

Do you have a particular entry in mind ?
It does seem that the information regarding the Nippon club meeting on Friday is, I believe, out of date. That is now replaced by the London City club.

I found a similar problem some years ago when I visited the Calais and Pau clubs - nobody there !

There are quite a lot of non entities on the webpage...

Farnborough Village
No longer meets.


Glenrothes
Wednesday around 19:00, 63 Braemar Gardens, Glenrothes, Fife, KY6 2RF.
Alan Stewart, alan_r_stewart at hotmail.com, 01592 772247.
Club web page: http://www.glenrothesgoclub.co.uk/. - Website doesn't exist

Liverpool
Now ceased to meet and previous contacts have left area

London, Imperial College
Also known as the Imperial College go club.
Yu-Xi Chau, yu.chau at imperial.ac.uk.
The club is currently dormant, but may well start up soon once negotiations with the union are done.


London, North West
Keith Rapley, rapleykeith@hotmail.com.
Club web page: http://www.britgo.org/clubs/lonnw/.
No longer meeting!

London, South Woodford
Also known as the Woodford go club.
No longer meets.

Maidenhead
Friday 20:00, various places.
Iain Attwell, 01628 676792, Norhurst, Westmorland Rd, Maidenhead. SL6 4HB.
Club web page: http://www.maidenheadgoclub.com/. account suspended

Southampton
No longer meets

Taunton
Seems to have ceased to exist.

[gaius]

As an onlooker from afar, what is the problem with declining membership? Is it causing fiscal problems for the BGA, or is it purely a matter of pride?

It is just one of many symptoms that makes one feel that Go in the UK is less healthy than elsewhere.

If for example our funds are low, then prizes at tournaments are reduced so the better players stay away - I think you can see the consequences of that.

I think that there are a few mistakes in the reasoning here. First of all, for the health of a go-playing community - whether this is a local group, a club, or a national association - the number of strong players is completely irrelevant. What you really need are enthousiastic volunteers (anywhere between 20 kyu and 7 dan is excellent) and a healthy number of beginning players. Go is easy enough to teach that people who have the time and interest are relatively easy to enthuse. Lack of other beginners will drive them away very rapidly though. And who cares if they then join the national association or not? If a cool new person joins my club, I am happy either way!

Given that 337 people played in some tournament or the other last year, I do not believe that "Go in the UK is less healthy than elsewhere". All this negativity will only drive people away unnecessarily.

Finally, suboptimal rulesets should not stop anyone from enjoying the game. I strongly believe that when explaining go, there is no such thing as bad rulesets, only bad teachers!