I would describe sabaki as tactics used when out-numbered or out-muscled locally, especially characterized by a willingness to sacrifice some stones to gain a flexible shape with others. Black`s connection is not sabaki as he can no longer afford to lose any of the stones. If black`s next move does not fix those stones (eg by forming a base, which is very very likely) then his sequence will be described as "heavy" (where 'light' and 'sabaki' mean the same or similar).
Very relatedly, for Redundant:
Could you describe the sort of sabaki sequence you were anticipating? (After your connection I doubt anything local is going to be called sabaki...)
Solid, thick. My group isn't unassailable, but it's not going to be a burden in the near future.
W's shape after does not feel thick at all; it feels heavy, exactly the opposite of W's original intention of playing sabaki. It is immediately a burden. In the game B played (a), but maybe a tighter pincer like or (b) is more severe and even better.
Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:47 am
by Shaddy
Loons wrote:For mnemonic:
I would describe sabaki as tactics used when out-numbered or out-muscled locally, especially characterized by a willingness to sacrifice some stones to gain a flexible shape with others. Black`s connection is not sabaki as he can no longer afford to lose any of the stones. If black`s next move does not fix those stones (eg by forming a base, which is very very likely) then his sequence will be described as "heavy" (where 'light' and 'sabaki' mean the same or similar).
Very relatedly, for Redundant:
Could you describe the sort of sabaki sequence you were anticipating? (After your connection I doubt anything local is going to be called sabaki...)
Could you describe the sort of sabaki sequence you were anticipating? (After your connection I doubt anything local is going to be called sabaki...) [go]
Also to Shaddy
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00] GN[A precut diagram]DT[2011-01-11]PC[http://lifein19x19.com/]AW[op][pq]AB[pp][qq]C[Diagram from http://lifein19x19.com/
A precut diagram]PL[W] ;C[My biggest idea is to not get sealed into the corner, and not to give him good influence.] (;B[oq] ;W[pr] ;B[or] ;W[qp] ;B[po] ;W[qr] ;B[rq] ;W[qo] (;B[rr] ;W[pn] ;B[oo] ;W[on] ;B[no] ;W[pj]C[I'm fine with this result. The cut at r6 is gote for black.]) (;B[qn] ;W[np]C[Black is burdened with dealing with the q6 ladder, which works for me. He also has to worry about the p2 stones, and the r3 stones.])) (;B[oq] ;W[pr] ;B[qr] ;W[po] ;B[qp] ;W[nq] ;B[or] ;W[nr] ;B[ps] ;W[nn]))[/sgf-full]
Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:49 am
by Redundant
$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . W . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . W . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't like black's previous move. Yes, he prevents me from forming an ideal 3 space extension, but his extension here is too large. I now have a big follow up near H3. My stones are strong. It's also possible that in the distant future, I can put his corner stones under attack, as they're currently without a real base.
I've also thinking of ways to attack his upper left corner. It's currently quite assailable.
Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:50 am
by topazg
Too large an extension? Or not large enough?
I'd play to deprive White of a base completely, how dare he ignore my ladder breaker _and_ make a base for his group?
Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:52 pm
by emerus
$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White now has a very resilient group. The fact that it's not thick should restrict white from invading my extension - for now.
My stone in atari is quite huge, if white plays honte and takes, then it's actually a quite aggressive move against all the black stones in the area. So we'll run it out with our eyes either on gaining influence to the top right or securing territory/our group to the left.
$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X 6 . 5 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 7 O X X X X O O O 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O B 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Didn't think of this before. Now, E12 and J15 are miai for me. Even if he takes E12 with his next move, I'll then just play F11. He still has to eat my lone stone, and then I'll be able to turn and wreak havoc on the left group. This is not going to end well for black.
Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:50 pm
by emerus
$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X X O O O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X X O O O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I will invite a ko. I think it's viable for white to play the ko but I'm not opposed to sacrificing more in the corner in order to influence the rest of the board.
Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:56 pm
by Marcus
emerus wrote:
I will invite a ko. I think it's viable for white to play the ko but I'm not opposed to sacrificing more in the corner in order to influence the rest of the board.
Not for players:
What ko?
$$Wcm1 Black cannot play at a $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . a 1 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X X O O O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00] GN[Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1]DT[2011-01-11]PC[http://lifein19x19.com/]CR[ie]AW[fa][ha][bb][gb][hb][ib][bc][cc][dc][ec][gc][dd][ed][gd][fe][he][ie][ff][dg][fg][fh][op][lq][oq][pq]AB[ba][cb][db][eb][fb][jb][fc][ic][cd][fd][hd][pd][ce][ee][ge][cf][ef][gf][hf][eg][dp][pp][qp][jq][qq]C[Diagram from http://lifein19x19.com/
Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1]PL[W] (;CR[ie]) (;W[]C[Here are a couple variations. The key points are:
I laugh at the possible ko. It's so many steps for black, and ko fighting favors the stronger player. Also, if I win, he's basically screwed.
I've gone over the basic ideas in the variations. There are other possible moves, but they're largely identical to what I've shown.
I have to play the extension, or the ponnuki is too nice on black. Also, this is a handi game, and I want to complicate.] (;B[id] ;W[if] (;B[hg] ;W[ig] ;B[hh] ;W[ea]C[There is no ko, and my floating stones will be fine, as black has two weak groups in the area to push on. also note how black's upper left is weak.] (;B[ca] ;W[ab] ;B[de] ;W[aa]C[I eat the corner. ]) (;B[ih] (;W[kf]) (;W[jd] ;B[jc] ;W[kd]C[I also like this.]))) (;B[ea] ;W[ca] ;B[ga] ;W[hg]C[The same bad ko for black.])) (;B[ea] ;W[ca] ;B[ga] ;W[id]C[This is a horrible ko for black. I don't even need threats.] ;B[da] ;W[fa] ;B[] ;W[] ;B[ga])))[/sgf-full]
Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:04 pm
by emerus
$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Mmmh, good move. I seem to be playing this game like a normal game, I'm not really going that far past first instinct - maybe I should have taken a more fair handicap. ^^
There are some ways that black can fight on the outside but none look good. We'll sacrifice some more then....
does not feel thick at all; it feels heavy, exactly the opposite of W's original intention of playing sabaki.
or (b) is more severe and even better.