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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:29 pm
by Loons
For either player;
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
The two continuations I was considering for black were a and b. Neither of you seem to have considered them- any particular reason why ? (Aiming to exploit the two stones' shortage of liberties)
Oh, my mistakes. Both players looked at exactly this and I somehow missed it.
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:32 pm
by topazg
@loons:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
What next for Black?
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:36 pm
by Loons
Well yes, I clearly missed that also
Not my most observant day.
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:41 am
by youngjae
I just finished cleaning off the collateral blood spatter from lurking too close to the Magicwand vs. Topazg melee, and while I was waiting for my clothes to drip dry so I can again bask in the light of day I thought I would weigh into this game!
Sorry but this is for observers only! To the players though... fight well!
This move in the game was generating a few comments.
While I think that after white extends to 'a' the result is perhaps slightly favorable, especially as black gives up sente when he defends his weakpoint at 'c', I am not sure if this move itself is the root of the problem. Perhaps it is earlier.
$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
My 2 cents is, that this move in the diagram below was premature. The next white move at 'a' bent black's shape around on itself, which seems a little painful.
$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
If I were playing, before taking a big point elsewhere, I would consider playing as below. Now 'a' and a point around 'b' or 'c' are miai for white's development.
$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Would like to hear other opinions though!
(I will take Kirby's advise and avoid the 'sarcasm' smiley to avoid confusion).
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:09 pm
by mw42
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:37 pm
by Mnemonic
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:03 pm
by mw42
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:24 pm
by topazg
@youngjae:
I agree with you completely youngjae, that's what I'd have done too
(the knight move for Black)
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:09 pm
by Chew Terr
Perception:
Perception wrote: If he plays the shoulder hit here's what I expect:
$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Something like that anyway. I think black would tenuki instead of responding directly to 8 because I can't see any local response that's really any good and to play at 8 instead of 7 allowing white to cut wouldn't be any good either.
With the top bottom and right sides all being so wide open still I'd feel okay with this since I would have around 30 solid points including komi.
Would this really have been even? It jsut feels like it gives up WAY too much strength on the right side. Having fallen for exactly this in my game against CSamurai, I'm kind of wary of letting an opponent build framework/influence on so large a scale.
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:39 pm
by Perception
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:48 pm
by Dusk Eagle
While I'm not going to dispute that the keima at 'a' is a good shape move, I think there is something to be said for a quick development
a la Go Seigen's style. I've been working my way through Kamakura (which I think I mentioned earlier in this thread) and in multiple games Go Seigen would leave a group of stones that Kitani was attacking to play big moves elsewhere and develop quickly.
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
For instance, what about counter-attacking around
? Depending on how things develop along the bottom, you can choose how to handle the top-left. For now, treat the top-left stones as bait that white must try to find a good way to capture. Just my thought.
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:20 am
by youngjae
@topazg
@Dusk Eagle
Dusk Eagle wrote: While I'm not going to dispute that the keima at 'a' is a good shape move, I think there is something to be said for a quick development
a la Go Seigen's style. I've been working my way through Kamakura (which I think I mentioned earlier in this thread) and in multiple games Go Seigen would leave a group of stones that Kitani was attacking to play big moves elsewhere and develop quickly.
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
For instance, what about counter-attacking around
? Depending on how things develop along the bottom, you can choose how to handle the top-left. For now, treat the top-left stones as bait that white must try to find a good way to capture. Just my thought.
I understand your point and I agree it is a possible tactic. In this situation though, is it maybe a little unnecessary? There is a real danger the group at the top could be very heavy and it is not very easy to attack white's corner stone. If white cuts black's approach stones then black will be very busy whereas by comparison white will not have very much to worry about and can focus on taking big points.
True, I am not Go Seigen so I cannot really judge the result, but at the same time, because I am not Go Seigen maybe I would not be confident playing this way
. Still I have not read through Kamakura and it sounds like it would be worth a read. How similar were the situations to this in which Go Sensei used this type of tactic?
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:36 pm
by Perception
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:31 am
by mw42
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:42 am
by Magicwand
for obs only:
every move have to agree with other moves you made prior.
he gaveup points to get influence before so he needs to play as below.
his move doesnt agree with the influence and lower right corner move.
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Not my most observant day.
(I will take Kirby's advise and avoid the 'sarcasm' smiley to avoid confusion).
(the knight move for Black)
? Depending on how things develop along the bottom, you can choose how to handle the top-left. For now, treat the top-left stones as bait that white must try to find a good way to capture. Just my thought.