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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:59 am
by EdLee
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16
Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:47 am
by Aphelion
EdLee:
Why not push through? It seems to be worth a few more points without really destroying any aji, and gives you 'a' endgame.
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16
Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:12 am
by Dusk Eagle
I would play the same as EdLee did.
$$Wm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm1
After
-
, white can still push at 'a' anytime.
Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:23 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@topazg: I just joined this thread, so please pardon the late question.
$$Bcm7 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
In the above position, you played 'a' with no explanation. Did you consider 'b'?
Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:39 pm
by topazg
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16
In a rush Joaz, so no time to give a proper response just yet - will send one through in a couple of hours
Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:01 pm
by Solomon
Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:23 pm
by topazg
@Joaz:
$$Bcm7 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
To be honest, it was just personal preference, I don't think I can honestly give a justification as to why one is better or worse than the other. The left and top are both very interesting. I'd rather not approach the lower left just yet, so that leaves "a", "b", "c", "d", or "e" I think. I've been keeping a reasonable eye on professional games recently, so I've been happy with anything that I would want to play anyway, that looks similar to a move and position where it was played professionally. The idea is we both top corners want to develop the top, and both left corners want to develop the left, so by approaching here I either get to develop the top (although I was planning on sliding and pulling back at J17 rather than my normal move at K16), or I get to double approach. Had he played the pincer I was expecting at J16, I'd prepared C14 in response.
Here are the beginnings to some recent, contextually similar, professional games
Thoughts on the last move:
Well, this is interesting, I have no idea whether this will be good for me on the left or not. If he pincers, I'm thinking of one of the following:
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16
I think "b" lets him fix "a", and doesn't do a lot for me. "a" looks exciting, and I'm really tempted with it. Something as follows perhaps?
$$Bm19
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm19
If he fixes the cut, I'm playing that 2 point extension myself, and I feel reasonably ok with the board as a whole. I predict something like:
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16
All fun and games
Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:41 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
To observers:
topazg wrote: ...
If he fixes the cut, I'm playing that 2 point extension myself, and I feel reasonably ok with the board as a whole. I predict something like:
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16
...
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16
I've got a theoretical fuseki question here. Is the marked stone really a good place for black to develop? My gut reflex is to say that it is compromised by the wall nearby, and therefore as long as it has running room I don't need to bother with it until the temperature drops a bit. I might play 'a' in this position.
Any profound thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.
Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:45 pm
by Loons
Some idle speculation @Joaz
Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:01 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@Loons & other observers:
I'm not really looking at it from the point of view of an alternate joseki, rather I am looking at it as a variation of this:
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16
...in which we would reflexively abandon or at least discount the marked stone. ( 'A' is a DDK move, right? )
Next, what about black playing 'a' here?
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16
Another way of asking the question is: how far away does the marked stone have to be before its character changes from 'abandon for the near term' to 'reinforce immediately'?
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:15 pm
by EdLee
@Aphelion
Aphelion wrote: Why not push through? It seems to be worth a few more points without really destroying any aji, and gives you 'a' endgame.
Good question. That's a standard bad habit.
Killing that one liberty
removes some bad aji for B and
creates more bad aji for W.
You never know when that extra liberty will come in handy.
There are many variations and follow-ups from the joseki position; W is not concerned about (a) now.
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16It's like in the following joseki when W pushes with (a) and B blocks at (b) --
it hurts W and helps B (e.g. removes W (c) aji):
$$W Reference joseki
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Reference joseki$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WIn the game, topazg played the correct joseki move
;
W would not do the (a)-(b) exchange now.
Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:06 am
by Magicwand
Aphelion wrote: EdLee:
Why not push through? It seems to be worth a few more points without really destroying any aji, and gives you 'a' endgame.
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16
yes you can play that way also.
they are both played by professionals.
ed already explained his side of the story.
now ..i have seen top professionals answer as below.
surely if is at least 1 point better for black with liberty filled.
$$Wm16
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm16
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:55 pm
by EdLee
$$Wm18
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm18
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:15 pm
by EdLee
Again,
was non-trivial for me.
If the double approach stone is on the 3rd line at
instead of (x),
W has the choices of (a) connect, (b) extend, (c) 1-space pincer, (x) shoulder-hit the
stone,
and possibly many others:
$$Wm18
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm18But
is at (x), so I want to try the kosumi and see what happens.
Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:50 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
- 
, white can still push at 'a' anytime.
was non-trivial for me.
instead of (x),
is at (x), so I want to try the kosumi and see what happens.