the bottom left side wants to extend more than the top left since its the 4th line and not the 3rd;
the top left is small right now because of that stone sitting low, extending form the top is ok but i much rather extend from the bottom corner, either way is playable but the bottom feels bigger and more comfortable for me
Well, that's quite up close and personal My group is now going to come under more pressure than it would have done had he played C6, but on the plus side, his corner formation is weaker. Looks like things may soon explode into some kind of fight, which should at least be fun and educational, if nothing else
PS: I'd appreciate some comments from stronger players on what they think of the way I've played the opening - even if it's in hide tags for me to not read until after the game. In particular, I'm not so sure about C9 all of a sudden - but it felt right at the time. (I note that EdLee made a couple of comments a few moves ago - thanks, and I hope I find them useful when I eventually get to read them )
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:34 am
by mw42
robinz wrote:
Well, that's quite up close and personal My group is now going to come under more pressure than it would have done had he played C6, but on the plus side, his corner formation is weaker. Looks like things may soon explode into some kind of fight, which should at least be fun and educational, if nothing else
PS: I'd appreciate some comments from stronger players on what they think of the way I've played the opening - even if it's in hide tags for me to not read until after the game. In particular, I'm not so sure about C9 all of a sudden - but it felt right at the time. (I note that EdLee made a couple of comments a few moves ago - thanks, and I hope I find them useful when I eventually get to read them )
@robinz
Well, just a couple quick comments: the direction that you blocked in the upper-right was wrong. If you blocked in the other direction (top) all your stones would have been working together nicely. As is, though, they are oddly placed (although you may have a chance to turn it to your benefit, but I can say no more!). You mentioned that Kageyama said capturing the stone was the "honest" move in the san-san joseki. I believe the context is different from when Kageyama made that statement. It is usually considered too slow to play in the way you described as "honest." I wouldn't play that move early unless my opponent had a strong surrounding position. Also, your idea to split the left was wrong, I think, since white already had a position on that side. The result makes it obvious that your choice was wrong. White will now very comfortably take the whole upper-left corner further hurting your top group while all you have is a very cramped two-space extension that is open to attack. Just approaching the bottom-left corner would have been a better strategy. Sorry if I sound overly critical.
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:53 am
by robinz
@mw42:
I have no problem with your criticism - it's all constructive, and I can hardly improve any other way
I suspect you're right that my play on the left was wrong - but we'll at least see how that goes now I've done it. I'm slightly surprised by your criticism of the way I blocked in the upper right though - I didn't even consider doing it the other way, and while I can now see that that would have been fine too, I don't really see what's wrong with the way I did it. The traditional proverb here is after all to "block on the wider side", and my right was (and still is) wider than my top. It seems to me to come down to which side I'd rather emphasise - and I chose the right. I also don't see how my stones are "oddly placed" (perhaps I'm a little overconcentrated, but if so that's probably due to my pincer stone being too close) - but I guess I could do later
I'm not saying that you're wrong, at all - you're definitely a lot stronger than me, as is Ed Lee, who commented on my block and I guess must have said the same as you now are saying. I'm just saying that, even in hindsight (not that the game has progressed that much further yet) I can't see why my choice was wrong. Maybe the game will show me, and even if not I can read Ed's comments afterwards. Thanks again
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:08 am
by mw42
@robinz
Block on the wider side is what I might use to justify blocking at the top. Consider these two diagrams:
Note in Dia. 1 I played your hane to clean up the aji of and so both joseki end in gote for the sake of discussion. Both diagrams result in a wall and an extension at . Which extension is "wider"? The one resulting from blocking on the top! It is in the perfect position and (a) is a nice move to enlarge your moyo.
Then I think the choice is more ambiguous and perhaps this is better.
EDIT:
I also don't see how my stones are "oddly placed" (perhaps I'm a little overconcentrated, but if so that's probably due to my pincer stone being too close) - but I guess I could do later
The stones that I consider oddly placed are your stones on the top. Consider the following diagram:
If the san-san joseki is played first before you kakari the upper-left corner (assuming you chose to do it on the top which wouldn't be correct to begin with) would you want to play at (d) to settle your group or (e) to build a framework?
Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:32 am
by gaius
for observers:
There is more than one way to handle white's approach. In this case, black had the opportunity to play a perfect move, exactly on the border of two frameworks:
i wanted to make this move before class i had already planned it out and everything, but it got to late, i probably gotta wait to tomorrow to see the next move, darn time zones
hes going to want to respond to this kick the top dosent look so good, its still pretty open and then i will go form there.
Well, I didn't expect that - and, while I hesitate to call it a bad move, I am quite pleasantly surprised OK, he now gets the corner, and it's quite a big one - but it still induces me to fix the major weakness of my group on top. Which in turn gives me less to fear about an attack on my newly-created left-hand side group. Not that I'm out of the woods yet, but I don't think this is the strongest way white could play.
(NB: my opinions as to the strength of a move, be it mine or my opponent's, probably bare very little relation to the reality )
i talked about this move in a previous post but now i think its time before its too late you know what i mean he could potentially do a lot on this side of the board, if he where to play where i played it would have made approaching the right side a lot harder
c17 is still open but after looking at it, i think I'm OK for know I'm pretty confident i can retain life and or compensate by taking profit else where, the board still has a few open points there just not as big anymore,
to prevent the 3-3 invasion i know i can play f18 to undercut in hopes he would protect right away but since its on the second line and his top group is not really threatened that much by it, its a little to slow for right now maybe later,
now I'm thinking its time to slow down and start thing harder about each move i make, there are no more easy boring moves on the board and i need to place value on the stones i have on the board and see how to better coordinate them, at the same time push all of his stones together and over concentrate his stones so they are less effective, hmmmnnn.
I'm pretty focused on the game maybe because i have to explain every move its new to me but its fun .
I guess this invasion should come as no surprise, although I'm still surprised he hasn't tried something on the left first. (Most of his moves there would be sente, I think.) And, while I'd like to do something there myself, I can't see anything with a big enough follow up, so I guess I have to deal with this invasion right now.
This is the first move that occurred to me, and I think it's OK. I assume he'll hane on one side or the other, but I think I get an OK result in either case (although, of course, not as good as if I'd got all that juicy 4th line territory ). What I expect is:
(34 could be at a instead, of course) - then I have sente to attack his group, when I would hope to make profit in the upper middle. Note that, while I've been split, neither of my groups is going to have any problem living, while his will hopefully be on the run for a while.
i thought about the hane on the other side but that's playing close his strength. Besides there is more space on this side. Now lets see how do i make the best of the stones i have hmmn.
Well, as I expected. On seeing his move, it suddenly occurred to me that the crosscut might be good. But it's beyond my ability to read - some lines I saw looked good enough for me that I almost played it (notably in that all ladders towards the upper-left are working for me), but others looked considerably more hairy. I really have no idea what would happen, so let's stick with the relatively simple (although it will still be tricky for me) line I indicated earlier.
i hate passing sente on.. oh well i was thinking of some creative stuff to do keep it but I'm not that fancy just yet and now is not the time to be trying new moves, if i was black i would love the chance to punish a overplay right about now so i cant give him the pleasure
its up to him now i have been thinking about this 3 stones and i have room to run, but running is not profitable it gives him a chance to enlarge his framework, but i will find some use for them, its on my mind but right now i can just treat them as light,
if i would have played q7 trying use a hanging connection he would just peeped it and if i leave these stones as is he could cross cut and i would have wasted two moves and would have been better off just passing, so i chose the solid connection, be as gentle as a lamb when I'm in the enemies areas of influence
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:59 pm
by EdLee
Hidden until right side completely settled:
feels submissive and wrong direction. Another idea -- if W tries to run out (a) direction, B has things like (b) waiting for W:
This looks like the most solid move I have - firstly securing my lower-right group and giving it some more eyespace, and also at the expense of his group's. Had he got to slide into S6 or thereabouts I wouldn't be too happy. I guess he'll probably now descend, to separate my groups and later threaten them with monkey jumps - but crucially, it won't give him any eyespace (I think I'll still have enough, especially as I have R2 if absolutely necessary - it shouldn't be though; I also have access to the centre). Then I'll be able to attack properly from the outside (I'm thinking of moves like O10.
He could also start running for the centre now, letting me connect under in gote and being satisfied with a light reduction. If so, I'll think then about whether just connecting is best or if I have some more severe attack - but I won't be unhappy. I really don't think he's going to tenuki...
My group is now going to come under more pressure than it would have done had he played C6, but on the plus side, his corner formation is weaker. Looks like things may soon explode into some kind of fight, which should at least be fun and educational, if nothing else 
)
and so both joseki end in gote for the sake of discussion. Both diagrams result in a wall and an extension at 
. Which extension is "wider"? The one resulting from blocking on the top! It is in the perfect position and (a) is a nice move to enlarge your moyo.
). What I expect is:
feels submissive and wrong direction.