Life In 19x19

LovroKlc wrote:

RobertJasiek wrote:Most strong Europeans I recall spend extraordinarily much free time for teaching, organization etc.

And to put aside that much time it is very hard to have a regular job. So earning money on go is their only way to continue promoting it without dying of famine. And, if they don't win money on tournaments, it is very hard to earn enough...

A lot of weak Europeans, who never dream of winning tournaments and earning price money, spend an extraordinary amount of time on Go promotion as well. Who organises all those tournaments, manage the affairs of local clubs, even attract some sponsorship? Usually it is the local 1 dan or 4 kyu or 10 kyu guy or gal. I mean, Robert, look around in Berlin, who organises the clubs and tournaments, who teaches most, who does the best work in reaching out to newcomers there?

In the end it boils down to sociology/economy: You can't sustain a professional circuit in too small a population. Lamenting about that won't change the facts. Either organise outside sponsorship or expand that population, though even if successful it won't be our generation of players to benefit from the effort, but those 6 y.o. that start learning today or tomorrow. Stop dreaming.

Addition: I find it really disingenious to claim the resident professionals and ex-insei are not teaching/promoting or only doing so temporarily before going back to Asia. Many of them definitely settled in Europe, incl. families, while others may not do so but still are basically teaching full time while in Europe thanks to Korean sponsorship for European Go.

tapir wrote:A lot of weak Europeans, who never dream of winning tournaments and earning price money,

There are also prizes for weaker players with good scores.

Robert, look around in Berlin, who organises the clubs and tournaments, who teaches most, who does the best work in reaching out to newcomers there?

Why do you ask? It makes more sense to watch ALL activities, local, national, international, real, internet.

or expand that population

Has also been done in the past.

John Fairbairn wrote:

And to put aside that much time it is very hard to have a regular job. So earning money on go is their only way to continue promoting it without dying of famine. And, if they don't win money on tournaments, it is very hard to earn enough...

You haven't died of starvation and don't make a living from go, so you presumably have a regular job. You have told us often you have spent a phenomenal amount of time on go - 2,345,679.333 recurring hours, was it? . I'd therefore expect it to be possible for someone else to spend that sort of time on pure go and yet likewise have a regular job, and eventually to be able to compete with Oriental professionals.

And please avoid tendentiousness. "Earning money on go" is not necessarily even one way of "promoting it", let alone the only way. I don't believe even an Oriental pro thinks he is putting in ten thousand hours to promote go. He's just trying to earn a living at something he enjoys.

I'm a student, so I probably have more time then people with regular jobs...

I'm a student, so I probably have more time then people with regular jobs...

I'm sorry (all round): I was misled by a double quote block above into thinking it was Robert who made the statement.

These people who won the Paris tournament have done more to help European go than many Europeans.

John Fairbairn wrote:

I'm a student, so I probably have more time then people with regular jobs...

I'm sorry (all round): I was misled by a double quote block above into thinking it was Robert who made the statement.

Oh, that explains a few things. No problems

Stop whining!!!!!!!!!
It is small fee to experience pro level go. How else can you learn more ? By book? Look at French open(Tennis or Golf). I would think that they want to attract as many as top players in the world. Why is go different? Looks like some few affected by pro is complaining.

Koffein wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:You can't make good money with Go, so why should the price-money only be awarded to strong european players (even those european pros), who are still weak when it comes to a competition with asian amateurs(!)?

Those "weak european players" won´t go back to East Asia, they stay in Europe to teach and promote Go. All of them already spent hundreds and thousands of hours to promote Go, so it´s only fair they get some money to be able to continue their work. If they can´t win money, they won´t be able to attend many tournaments, so they have no chance to compete at all and probably switch to <insert random game here>

That's life. Professionals contact tournament organisers and arrange fees to come and do teaching weekends and evenings and the like. If strong Europeans want to do this alongside an event, more power to them - I'd certainly be very happy if part of my entry fee went to a strong player offering teaching, even at cost. It seems a very appropriate thing for the money to go towards. However, prizes should go to the winner. If they are strong enough, they can get the prizes, if they aren't, they don't.

Koffein wrote:

topazg wrote:I can't express how happy I was to sit there on EuroGoTV watching the top two boards of a European tournament, consisting of 3 professionals and strong Korean ex-insei.

I can´t express how sad i was to sit there on EuroGoTV watching a big european tournament and not being able to see Europeans at all.

I agree that this is sad. However, that's not the fault of allowing non-Europeans to play, it's a problem that Europeans aren't strong enough. If I'm a big fan of a snooker or tennis player that happens to be outside of the top 100, I could be really unhappy that I don't get to watch them when the sport happens to be on the TV, or I could accept that they aren't strong enough to get to the televised rounds.

Frankly, I would like to see this whole "I want to see Europeans" thing disappear, it really feels somewhat racist. I don't care if the top boards are black, white, Korean, German, Argentinian, male, female, 75 years old, 10 years old, disabled, or whatever. What I want to see is really really strong Go players. The French Open had that in abundance, and I thought it was fantastic. Sure, if we had 4 Europeans on the top board that were playing even stronger than all the pros that would be awesome (in fact, probably more awesome as it would hint that the Go scene over here is finally getting really truly strong), but it wasn't the case. As it was, I was delighted that we could boast so much GoR 2750 talent on display. Congratulations to the organisers for making it happen.

On that note, I would like to speak out for the unsung heroes in this thread that I personally think deserve the money as much as any strong players: namely, the organisers, the event promoters, and the administrators of all these great tournaments I get the pleasure to attend. If my money and fee (I expect to bear a financial burden when visiting an event, and would still expect to have to if I became a lot stronger) go towards making sure the event runs smoothly and more events happen in the future, I will remain very happy. If it costs a bit more because they are also intending on having someone particularly strong attend the event and do a simul and/or a lecture or two, I'll make the most of the added value and enjoy those too.

Hello everyone,

i personnally enjoy having top pros playing go in our domestic tournaments because it is challenging and a healthy rivalry with asian players can only allows us to improve our level.

It's also true that it is a shame that a good european player can't attend to a tournament due to financial issues but wouldn't it be the aim of the European Go Foundation to help our best players to attend big tournaments ?

How long has Liu Yuanbo been in Europe? He played a tournament back in 2010 as well.

hyperpape wrote:How long has Liu Yuanbo been in Europe? He played a tournament back in 2010 as well.

According to EGD, his first appearance was in February 2010: http://europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Player ... y=15762175 However, Paris 2011 is missing from that page so... there may be other tourneys missing.

Paris is probably missing because it's so recent. I was under the impression that he had lived in Europe for awhile, but I now think that's wrong.

hyperpape wrote:Paris is probably missing because it's so recent.

The most recent tournament (Prague, 7-8 May 2011) is there, but most probably you're right. French organizers (or whoever has to submit the results) are not that fast like the Czech ones.

Adrian Ghioc wrote:

hyperpape wrote:Paris is probably missing because it's so recent.

The most recent tournament (Prague, 7-8 May 2011) is there, but most probably you're right. French organizers (or whoever has to submit the results) are not that fast like the Czech ones.

I really don't understand how can they take that long. I never uploaded so big tournaments, but I think that you can upload any tournament in no longer than one week(maybe congress can be exception).