Life In 19x19

John Fairbairn wrote:

I think that grade for kyu is not right for go usage. In school, first grade comes before second grade, which comes before third grade, etc. Class, however, fits the usage of kyu. First class is higher than second class, which is higher than third class, etc. Grade fits the usage of dan.

No, this is all entirely arbitrary.

I do not see a disagreement, here.

Calling schools years grades is not British usage (in my school we went up from 1st to 6th form),

Gradus ad Parnassum. The second step is further along than the first step. The fact that British speak of forms, does not affect that aspect of grades.

The second step is further along than the first step. The fact that British speak of forms, does not affect that aspect of grades.

It may signify that to you, but not to us. We have businesses here that call themselves e.g. Grade 1 Hairdressers, meaning they think they are the best grade. When we hear Americans speak of being in the fourth grade, that is meaningless to most of us. We know it's something to do with school but that's as far as it goes. We get no direction from the numbers. We also don't say "get good grades" - we say "get good marks". Grade A is usually highest for us, but A is the first letter of the alphabet, so even there we have different associations.

In contrast, I think (but the very fact that I'm unsure makes my point) that we have music exams where beginners start with Grade 1. In other words, for us at least, it is all somewhat arbitrary, so using grade or class for dan or kyu is just a matter of custom or taste, not logic. I suspect that people here who know Latin might want to think of grade specifically as a step, but they are a tiny minority. (I'm one and I don't.)

EdLee wrote:

EeveeM wrote:I've thought that for at least 2 years.

Welcome to the forum, EeveeM.

Thank you Edlee ^^ It's nice to be here. I find all sorts of interesting things to learn about :3

so.. is kyu a japanese term or a chinese term (originally)? When I read, I tend to think it's both, but there's something that tells me there's a large difference.

EeveeM wrote: is kyu a japanese term or a chinese term (originally)?

Go back and re-read the last 15 posts or so.

John Fairbairn wrote:We are actually just following Japanese practice, not a general Oriental approach. But that has been arbitrary, too. The Hoensha under Shuho abolished dans and replaced them with kyu grades. Restoring dans was a condition laid down by the Honinbos for giving Shuho the title. He caved in.

Andrew Grant's book says Hoensha wasn't allowed to give dan grades. Is that inaccurate?

Andrew Grant's book says Hoensha wasn't allowed to give dan grades. Is that inaccurate?

I refer you to Zain Danso, page 202, for the Hoensha's own words on the topic. For the politics, I'd refer you to my book The Insha Game, except there seems to have been some delay by Slate & Shell in issuing it.

In brief, though, two main factors to bear in mind are that in the Meiji era the Honinbo family was on the wane and was being challenged by several new organisations, of which the Hoensha was only one (i.e. tradition was less of a force), and that, with the new democratisation of the time, the go world was on the verge, for the first time, of recognising amateurs properly. Part of Shuho's genius was to understand the latter point very well. Previously, the best an amateur could hope for normally was a 1-dan diploma on the pro scale. Below the tiny elite who could achieve that level (and afford the diploma) there was a huge gaggle (us) waiting to be graded. So, essentially, dans were abolished for amateurs, who became kyus on a scale with much more discrimination. I think (without checking) that Shuho may have got the idea for kyus to go with dans from the guy who founded judo just before the Hoensha began, Kano Jigoro.

But Shuho's accession as Honinbo (and the associated politics) and, more to the point, his death soon after, derailed some of the new ventures to some extent. Many others pros were anyway more comfortable with still selling diplomas to a tiny but rich audience.

Mind you, in essence Shuho prevailed. We still have kyus. If you are a kyu player on the start of your go journey, you can proudly call yourself one of Shuho's Babes.

Bill Spight wrote:...

No, this is all entirely arbitrary.

I do not see a disagreement, here.

My interpretation of the argument was that the claim that "grade" is better terminology for dan and "class" is better terminology for kyu was based on the numerical ordering of the terms (1 > 2 > 3 > ... > n) vs. (1 < 2 < 3 < ... < n), and this ordering is independent of the root meaning of the word.

Kirby wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:...

No, this is all entirely arbitrary.

I do not see a disagreement, here.

My interpretation of the argument was that the claim that "grade" is better terminology for dan and "class" is better terminology for kyu was based on the numerical ordering of the terms (1 > 2 > 3 > ... > n) vs. (1 < 2 < 3 < ... < n), and this ordering is independent of the root meaning of the word.

John explained further in his note. For instance:

John Fairbairn wrote:Ultimately grades go back to ancient China, but there the civil service was split into 九品　or 九級 (with 9 as the highest), not dans. Dan = grade is not really a Chinese usage (there the usual meaning of duan is fragment or segment). It is a term from Japanese martial arts that has been copied by the Chinese go world.

Well, language is arbitrary. Besides, my original note was about go usage. So where is the disagreement? As far as I can tell, if disagreement there be, it is about British vs. American usage.

Now, one thing that both John and I knew, but did not say, was that one meaning of dan, in Japanese, is step. That accords with grade, which is derived from the Latin gradus, and retains the meaning of stage in a progression. Another thing that both of us knew, but did not say, was that early translators of go literature translated dan as grade. I do not think that their choice was arbitrary, but had to do with the meaning as step. I interpreted John's statement as referring to the general arbitrariness of language.

Bill Spight wrote:...
Now, one thing that both John and I knew, but did not say, was that one meaning of dan, in Japanese, is step.

You seem to presume that this is information that a lot of people don't know.

In any case, I'm not sure it's relevant considering the earlier rationale:

Bill Spight wrote:Minor point:

I think that grade for kyu is not right for go usage. In school, first grade comes before second grade, which comes before third grade, etc. Class, however, fits the usage of kyu. First class is higher than second class, which is higher than third class, etc. Grade fits the usage of dan.

The quote above is a different argument than the one you are giving now. The quote suggests the ordering of grades and classes as a means to distinguish between usage, which is arbitrary.

Kirby wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:...
Now, one thing that both John and I knew, but did not say, was that one meaning of dan, in Japanese, is step.

You seem to presume that this is information that a lot of people don't know.

Do you disagree?

Bill Spight wrote:Minor point:

I think that grade for kyu is not right for go usage. In school, first grade comes before second grade, which comes before third grade, etc. Class, however, fits the usage of kyu. First class is higher than second class, which is higher than third class, etc. Grade fits the usage of dan.

The quote above is a different argument than the one you are giving now. The quote suggests the ordering of grades and classes as a means to distinguish between usage, which is arbitrary.

Then you misunderstand me.

To clarify (I hope): yes, as Bill infers, I have mainly been pointing up a difference in US/UK usage. It seems to me that Americans use the word "grade" rather more than we do and associate it with a certain ordering simply because it is part of their daily school life. We have no such constant contact with the word or specific association with a number order (or if we do, it may well be the reverse order).

The reason I pointed it out was that I got the impression that Bill was recommending the use of the word "grade" for "dan" and "class" for "kyu". While I wouldn't specially object to that if it became universal, it seemed to me that the logic of the argument was flawed in several ways. One was that it was US-centric, and everyone here knows how I feel about that! Another (which I didn't bother to mention but will now) is that the step analogy is useful but is not limited to dan. As Honinbo Shuho remarked, the purpose of either dan or kyu was to provide steps to indicate the size of handicaps. These steps apply with equal force to dan and kyu. The reason the system was split like that was historical. While the only players that mattered were pros, dan was usually sufficient. When amateurs came along in large numbers, instead of replacing dans altogether, which would have undermined a lot of history, a decision was made to add kyus - but still with the same step idea. A westerm mathematician might want to use negative dan numbers, and a western computer programmer might want to start an array at zero with long integers for especially weak players - but Shuho was neither. I think we are in synch with him even today as we happily refer to dan grades and kyu grades, i.e. grade is not tied to dan but more to "one-stone handicap difference". I don't even think there is a prior art of translation bias towards grade for dan. A common translation for "dan" in older go texts, but above all in martial arts, is "degree". I've never been sure whether this was meant to hint at a degree in the university sense, but the nuance that "dan" is when you qualified as a pro would not have gone amiss in Shuho's day.

I have never tried to trace when and why amateur dan grades split off from pro dan grades, though it was clearly before about 1950. At a guess, it may have come about when amateur tournaments began (mid 1930s), and the results exposed the fact that all those 1-dans who had effectively bought their grades by buying diplomas in fact covered rather a wide range. Rather than demote the less successful, the winners of the tournaments were promoted. We see this process very clearly from the 1950s when, in turn the first 5-dan, 6-dan, 7-dan and 8-dan were made specific prizes in amateur events.

I am not proposing any new usage BTW. I think the words dan and kyu are best left alone. In general I favour English words in go, but mainly when that promotes understanding of concepts or if it disembowels affectation. Dan and kyu present no such problems.

John Fairbairn wrote:To clarify (I hope): yes, as Bill infers, I have mainly been pointing up a difference in US/UK usage. It seems to me that Americans use the word "grade" rather more than we do and associate it with a certain ordering simply because it is part of their daily school life. We have no such constant contact with the word or specific association with a number order (or if we do, it may well be the reverse order).

I was interested to find out about the English usage of grade 1, grade 2, etc.

I am not proposing any new usage BTW. I think the words dan and kyu are best left alone. In general I favour English words in go, but mainly when that promotes understanding of concepts or if it disembowels affectation. Dan and kyu present no such problems.

In that we are in total agreement.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but I'm going to give responses for some sort of closure.

Bill Spight wrote:...
Do you disagree?

Yes I do. Even to non go players, anyone that's studied Japanese for maybe a month has at least seen 段 in a word like 階段, for example. Even if you don't study Japanese at all, and just pick up a travel guide, you'll find phrases like:

こんにちは。
階段はどこですか。
お手洗いはどこですか。

I'd say that 段 ranks up there with characters like 学　and 花 in terms of difficulty.

But it doesn't really matter to me if you intended to "teach" us some Japanese as much as it seems that you are trying to use this as a means to argue from a higher authority (eg. "What John and I know, but you guys don't, is that..."), when really, 段 is a basic kanji that most everyone that has any interest in the language knows.

Bill Spight wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:Minor point:

I think that grade for kyu is not right for go usage. In school, first grade comes before second grade, which comes before third grade, etc. Class, however, fits the usage of kyu. First class is higher than second class, which is higher than third class, etc. Grade fits the usage of dan.

The quote above is a different argument than the one you are giving now. The quote suggests the ordering of grades and classes as a means to distinguish between usage, which is arbitrary.

Then you misunderstand me.

Do I? Have any explanation? Given only the quoted paragraph - which is what I was responding to in the first place - what other interpretation am I to adopt?

The first sentence of the paragraph stands on its own - you argue that grade for kyu is not right for go usage. But what are the subsequent sentences intended to portray if not a distinction between grade and class based on order?

I did not know that's a meaning of dan. There's a lot of us who don't speak any of the relevant go languages (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2833&hilit=language).

hyperpape wrote:I did not know that's a meaning of dan. There's a lot of us who don't speak any of the relevant go languages (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2833&hilit=language).

It could be that some people do not know the meaning of dan - I was mainly turned off that that was being used as an argument, when the point of the matter had nothing to do with "step", since the quote that I was responding to specifically pointed out the ordering of "grades" and "classes".