Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:54 pm
by Chew Terr
Koroviev wrote:If I see what looks like a tesuji, but read it out and realise it doesn't work, I read it out another 25 times in the hope I can make it work through sheer willpower.
When I do this, sometimes I manage to convince myself it does. Generally it still doesn't, though...
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:03 pm
by robinz
I don't want to be too profligate with my "likes", but I really want to "like" all 3 of those last posts. I can relate to all of them
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:15 pm
by jts
Presumably there's a difference, though, between re-reading for the sake of re-reading and re-reading to consider a variation that you dismissed the first time.
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:38 pm
by Marcus
I have not read Kageyama, but ladders (and other similar positions) are near and dear to my heart.
I see ladders similarly to the way Bill does (though I make mistakes more often, I guarantee; stones are hard to visualize ... more on this later).
It's interesting how many people use the "tic-tac" method beyond 4-5 moves ... I can't keep "tic-tac" up past the first 6 moves or so ... I lose my train of thought, and sometimes miss.
To elaborate a bit on my ladder reading style ...
1) Diagonal lines
The simplest ladders are diagonal lines. I don't visualize stones very well, but I can see a straight diagonal line. Don't know why there's a difference, and I'm slowly getting better at using stones instead of lines.
2) Partial shift
There are certain shapes that indicate to me that it's possible to "shift" part of a diagonal line in the up-down or left-right directions. These are the next step of complication in ladders, in my opinion.
3) Reflect direction
After getting good at the partial shift, the next thing that I started to see were shifts that allowed a right-angle turn for the diagonal line. This seems to me to be the next step of complications in ladders.
From here, my ladder reading gets better by recognizing and visuallizing opportunities for throw-ins and eye-stealing tesuji as triggers for ladder situations.
My reading is imperfect, but I feel comfortable reading sown a narrow line of play fairly deeply. Breadth of reading is slowly getting better.
Now, if only my global strategy were to get better ... I suck at reading the state of the overall board.
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:48 pm
by Tryphon
We need a thread "Get Strong At Shichos", with ladders sorted by order of difficulty
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:13 pm
by hyperpape
Yeah, in the past, I have run out of examples, or I found that the ladder exercises on senseis were wildly variable in difficulty. I think you could get pretty far just by reorganizing the stones in the examples that Kageyama gives.
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:18 pm
by Bill Spight
Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:...
Macbeth. If we should fail?
Lady Macbeth. We fail!
If I may summarize, we can interpret this to mean that re-reading is worse than failure, right? That is, if re-reading could give us a chance to not fail when we otherwise would fail by reading only once, one ought to take their chances with the failure, since it is worse to re-read.
Is this an accurate representation of the advice?
To summarize, IMO you need more grit.
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:57 pm
by Dusk Eagle
Does anyone else find that they can read ladders across the board, but by the time they get to the other side, they've lost track of which color is being chased? I find this happens to me quite a bit, forcing me to reread when the situation is complicated on the other side. It's not a major problem, but I find the fact that this happens kind of interesting.
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:37 am
by lefuet
Dusk Eagle wrote:Does anyone else find that they can read ladders across the board, but by the time they get to the other side, they've lost track of which color is being chased? I find this happens to me quite a bit, forcing me to reread when the situation is complicated on the other side. It's not a major problem, but I find the fact that this happens kind of interesting.
this happens to me too. I have to than start again, thinking of the color chased while doing tic tac and only adding chasing stones ("black-white-black-..") near other stones ..
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
[go]$$c can you capture the two stones? $$ ----------------- $$ | . X . O O . . | $$ | . X O . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . O | $$ | . . . , . . . | $$ | O . . . . . . | $$ | . X Q . . . . | $$ | . X Q X X . . | $$ ----------------[/go]
Very good ones! : ) The second one is really tricky because Black has to watch out for his own cutting points and liberties. The first is "kind of" straight forward in comparison ^^
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:55 am
by tapir
I would like to know how long people need to actually read a ladder across the board. Can you do it in under 30, 20, 15 or 10 seconds? (Honest answers are appreciated.) Are you actually reading ladders in blitz games? How long does it take if you want to resist against a ladder-breaker in a way that the ladder still works?
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:08 am
by Marcus
I found the second one easier to visualize, but it was still a couple tries before the lines added up correctly.
EDIT#2: I got the 2nd one wrong when visualizing ... More practice is required! I corrected myself when writing out my solutions.
The first one I had to restart 4 times ...
EDIT: in answer to tapir's question, a straight ladder across the board (with maybe one or two complications) takes me roughly 5-10 seconds to evaluate. I'm usually correct on these ones (I'd say 95% correct with a typical ladder). With the two just posted, I took about 30 seconds on the second one and about 2-3 minutes on the first one (I'm going to have to figure out why that was harder for me). In a game, I'd give myself a 60% chance to read either of those out correctly. Maybe if I spent more time reading the ladders out, I'd be better at getting them right.
I like these! I wouldn't say I'd see them in a game, though. I'm no ladder wizard (yet!).
Sol'ns?
$$c Black captured at O9 in the process $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B B | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B W W W | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B W W B B | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X B B W W W B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . B W W W O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B W W B . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B W B . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O B W W X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$c Black captured at O9 in the process $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B B | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B W W W | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B W W B B | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X B B W W W B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . B W W W O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B W W B . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B W B . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O B W W X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
$$c Black throws in at G6 before playing G4 $$ ----------------- $$ | . X B O O W W | $$ | . X O W B O W | $$ | B W W B B B O | $$ | W W B B W W W | $$ | O B B W W B B | $$ | B X Q W B . . | $$ | . X Q X X . . | $$ ----------------
[go]$$c Black throws in at G6 before playing G4 $$ ----------------- $$ | . X B O O W W | $$ | . X O W B O W | $$ | B W W B B B O | $$ | W W B B W W W | $$ | O B B W W B B | $$ | B X Q W B . . | $$ | . X Q X X . . | $$ ----------------[/go]
Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .
Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:10 am
by daniel_the_smith
Dusk Eagle wrote:Does anyone else find that they can read ladders across the board, but by the time they get to the other side, they've lost track of which color is being chased? I find this happens to me quite a bit, forcing me to reread when the situation is complicated on the other side. It's not a major problem, but I find the fact that this happens kind of interesting.
I don't think this has happened to me. I mentally follow only the stones being laddered until I get near other stones, which may or may not be related.
Don't know why there's a difference, and I'm slowly getting better at using stones instead of lines.