Page 3 of 4

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:06 pm
by Li Kao
Spezi wrote:Thank you for the review; I mainly play on KGS, but played on IGS, too (when I was like 8 kyu). Some time ago I wanted to try playing on IGS again, but I wasn't sure which rank I should pick, so I didn't.
36: was frightened of black c5, but now that you point it out; it seems I could simply have played c6 in response(and here I thought Bc5 was one of my best moves...)
60: really? Thought it would be bad because of black b11
134: didn't really read it out :oops:

You could look into Tygem and Wbaduk. Both have many strong Asian players and games tend to be more aggressive than on KGS.

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:45 am
by gogameguru
One thing you haven't mentioned is whether you spend much time reviewing your own games by yourself. Have you tried that?

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:21 am
by Spezi
gogameguru wrote:One thing you haven't mentioned is whether you spend much time reviewing your own games by yourself. Have you tried that?

Not that much, how long should you do that? After every game? Only after the slow ones?

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:26 am
by gogameguru
Try giving up the fast games for awhile and play slower games where you try really hard to get the most out of every move. On each turn, start by looking around the whole board and asking yourself what this position requires of you.

After your instinct tells you what the 'normal' move is, look deeper for the 1/10 moves where you can be more severe. Keep your eyes open for momentary opportunities to change the flow, which appear in the middle of ordinary looking sequences. Remembering to look at the whole board frequently will help you start to see these opportunities.

It will be hard at first, but once you expand your 'vision' you won't easily lose this skill, even if you're not able to play go for some years.

Playing this way you're also going to make many overplays and mistakes, because you'll be pushing things to the limit of your abilities. Focus on the quality of your play, rather than winning so that you'll be in the right mental state to review every game. Spend about as much time reviewing as you do playing. You don't need to review immediately. If you're tired or upset after a game, take a break and review later, rather than starting another game.

Remember that you're bound to play the best move, not just the easy move. If the whole board requires stones to die, then they have to die.

These are a few of the things I learned from my teacher and a few other ideas that helped me when I was around your level. I hope they help you too.

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:34 am
by Spezi
Thank you for the tips.
Tried to play a game the way you said. Time was 30min+30s, but it seems to be far too little time for me. It seems I need like 3h pro player. Didn't take many moves to reach byoyomi. Does 30min+30s count as fast or as slow? Nonetheless, it's clearly not enough time. When I reach byoyomi I can't think clearly anymore. Did quite some mistakes. Lost the game. I will review it later on. You don't have to do it. I simply attach it because doing so does no harm. I'm playing white.
[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1040[/sgf-full]

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:46 am
by hyperpape
Spezi wrote:Does 30min+30s count as fast or as slow? Nonetheless, it's clearly not enough time.
Online it's slow, or the slow end of medium, though I have a major distaste for having a single byo-yomi period.

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:55 am
by Spezi
Phrased it wrongly, meant 30min+5*30sec.

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:58 am
by cdybeijing
In my experience, 30 min + 5 x 30s becomes a much more comfortable and thoughtful game if you adjust the byo-yomi setting to 3 x 1:00. Most people willing to play a 30 minute main time game will not object to the altered settings.

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:29 pm
by Koosh
Just my 2c, being a player who has also been around 1-2d for awhile. I personally feel that it is a combination of reading skills, knowledge of concepts, and integration of those concepts that drives growth. Problems, books, and actively thinking about what you want to practice seems like the right road.

This thread is inspiring for me. Let's not give up :)

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:44 pm
by Solomon
Spezi wrote:Does 30min+30s count as fast or as slow?
Depends on the player. However, I heard Cho Seok-bin suggesting to someone he was giving a lesson to that a time setting very similar to that is much too slow. You need to get better not just on reading, but on reading efficiently and effectively. I'm not implying you should play blitz (though there are some strong players who have suggested that that isn't necessarily a bad idea either), but I find something like 10:00/40(3) to be rather balanced.

Experiment with various time settings and find what suits you best, just like what any other mad scientist drinking Dr. Pepper would do.

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:52 pm
by Redundant
Araban wrote:Experiment with various time settings and find what suits you best, just like what any other mad scientist drinking Dr. Pepper would do.


Are you stalking me? ... you seem to reference everything I do the day after I start.

Image

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:56 pm
by gogameguru
Spezi wrote:Thank you for the tips.
Tried to play a game the way you said. Time was 30min+30s, but it seems to be far too little time for me. It seems I need like 3h pro player. Didn't take many moves to reach byoyomi. Does 30min+30s count as fast or as slow? Nonetheless, it's clearly not enough time. When I reach byoyomi I can't think clearly anymore. Did quite some mistakes. Lost the game. I will review it later on. You don't have to do it. I simply attach it because doing so does no harm. I'm playing white.


That's right. For the purposes of this exercise, 30 mins won't seem like much time. It's usually hard to find people who want to play more slowly though, except in tournaments. It's hard for you now because this might be the first time you've approached the game this way. It's partly the challenge of this that will help you get stronger.

In some book I read about human learning, they used the mnemonic 'FEED' - as in feed your brain. It stands for Focus, Effort, Effortlessness, Determination. The point is, that learning new skills is often hard, but if you stay focused on doing your best and put in the effort, even when it's tough, it will help you reach a level of competency where what was hard before suddenly seems effortless. From memory, determination was there mainly to point out that you have certain goals you're aiming towards and once you reach effortlessness, you raise the bar and start the cycle again, instead of stopping.

When I play like this, 30 mins doesn't seem like that long. However, after awhile you'll get into the habit of looking at the whole board, so you won't have to consciously think about that so much. Also, your reading should start to get more efficient and if you read things out accurately and remember the results (including moves x, y. z are sente against this group) then you don't always need to re-read later. This way you can make up a lot of time later in the game, because you already know the result.

If you have to save time somewhere, I'd recommend playing a straightforward, solid opening and then using most of your time on finding opportunities in the middle game. This is where most amateur games are decided. A solid opening gives you a good foundation for fighting later if you want to.

Remember though that you're trying really hard and reading fast, you're not just taking your time because it's not a 'fast' game.

One of the great benefits of doing lots of tesuji and life and death problems is that it will make your reading more efficient, especially once sharp moves become reflexive for you.

The advantage of reviewing all your games is that you have all the time you want to think about the whole board and read deeply. Take all the time you want. I really think reviewing thoroughly is one of the keys to improving.

It's not the only way, as Araban has said, but it's one way which is worth trying for awhile.

Personally at one stage I tried following the standard advice about blitz games. That took me from about 7d on Tygem back to 5d (back before Tygem had an English client) and it took awhile to recover. So the blitz advice doesn't work for me, but it might work for others. After I started having lessons with An Younggil, he also told me that blitz would make me weaker. It may be different for people who are younger? I'm not sure where the blitz advice comes from.

David

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:09 pm
by Toge
Kirby wrote:Really? It'd be surprising to me if improvement were impossible at any point.


- If that were true, why would there be age limit in pro exams? Learning is naturally faster the younger we are. To be become better Go player, you have to beat your previous self. That means more knowledge and/or better computing. Unfortunately those are going to deteriorate over time.

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:17 pm
by Numsgil
Toge wrote:
Kirby wrote:Really? It'd be surprising to me if improvement were impossible at any point.


- If that were true, why would there be age limit in pro exams? Learning is naturally faster the younger we are. To be become better Go player, you have to beat your previous self. That means more knowledge and/or better computing. Unfortunately those are going to deteriorate over time.


I think it's for more pragmatic reasons. Like they want younger people who are more likely to put up with weird schedules, etc. because they're after a career. A 50 year old retiree might play excellent go but not be willing to put up with the harsh schedule a young pro has to. Also young up and comers and more likely to generate excitement (and thus money) than a 50 year old new to the scene. Also, to become pro you really need to devote considerable time, so they might want to discourage mid 20s almost pros (who are like 4/5th each year) from continuing on with go, and pick and actual career that is going to make them money. It might just be cultural as well.

There are certainly ameteurs who are more than strong enough to pass the pro exam, and probably became that strong after they were past the age limit (ex inseis especially, if they continued playing after not going pro).

Re: Stuck at 2D

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:38 pm
by Dusk Eagle
Toge wrote:
Kirby wrote:Really? It'd be surprising to me if improvement were impossible at any point.


- If that were true, why would there be age limit in pro exams? Learning is naturally faster the younger we are. To be become better Go player, you have to beat your previous self. That means more knowledge and/or better computing. Unfortunately those are going to deteriorate over time.

Even if learning is faster when younger, that doesn't mean that someone well past the pro age limit can't still be getting stronger.