Page 3 of 3
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:33 am
by HermanHiddema
A few points:
- Just because you have never seen a certain move before does not mean it is not joseki
- Sometimes, a move that is not normally considered joseki is playable due to unusual circumstances.
- For some joseki deviations, the "punishment" is a one or two point gain in the endgame.
- Other deviations are inferior only because they leave more aji. Trying to punish them immediately is probably aji-keshi.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:12 am
by hyperpape
malweth wrote:CXUD - at 20k, if you know 10 basic joseki you're ahead of the game. Don't worry about joseki until you're at least SDK. Punishing joseki is easily a dan level topic.
I don't get these kinds of comments. Easy example: 5 kyus should know the following
is bad and the punishment.
$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:50 am
by p2501
hyperpape wrote:malweth wrote:CXUD - at 20k, if you know 10 basic joseki you're ahead of the game. Don't worry about joseki until you're at least SDK. Punishing joseki is easily a dan level topic.
I don't get these kinds of comments. Easy example: 5 kyus should know the following
is bad and the punishment.
$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Sorry for being off topic, but is this correct? :
$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 6 . |
$$ , . . . . 8 X 3 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 6 . |
$$ , . . . . 8 X 3 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
After white 8 black has failed confining white into the corner and will lose either 5 or 3+7.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:58 am
by hyperpape
It's just now occurring to me that there was an in depth discussion of this move here on L19, and that it's actually quite complicated. But that's one punishment.
Maybe a bad example.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:21 am
by gowan
p2501 wrote:hyperpape wrote:malweth wrote:CXUD - at 20k, if you know 10 basic joseki you're ahead of the game. Don't worry about joseki until you're at least SDK. Punishing joseki is easily a dan level topic.
I don't get these kinds of comments. Easy example: 5 kyus should know the following
is bad and the punishment.
$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Sorry for being off topic, but is this correct? :
$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 6 . |
$$ , . . . . 8 X 3 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 6 . |
$$ , . . . . 8 X 3 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
After white 8 black has failed confining white into the corner and will lose either 5 or 3+7.
There is a lot of material on this on Sensei's Library:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?44PointOneSpace ... terception See the section on "Mistakes" towards the bottom of the page. Part of the problem is that the hane at b5 is the "mistake" but it has been played in pro games (see remark at the top of the SL page). The moral of this story is that mistakes might not be mistakes, and punishment of even fairly simple mistakes can be very complicated.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:36 am
by daniel_the_smith
hyperpape wrote:malweth wrote:CXUD - at 20k, if you know 10 basic joseki you're ahead of the game. Don't worry about joseki until you're at least SDK. Punishing joseki is easily a dan level topic.
I don't get these kinds of comments. Easy example: 5 kyus should know the following
is bad and the punishment.
$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
I was kinda hoping someone would bring this up as an example. The thing is, 5 is not always a mistake, and if it is, the punishment is only worth a couple points (assuming black doesn't play the disastrous continuation that 5k's like to play).
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:38 am
by hyperpape
Fair. Even 5kyus should know the disastrous continuation?
I'd also claim that the people playing it aren't playing it because they have any idea that it's appropriate. It's almost always a mistake when we see it. At best it's an ok play that the player doesn't understand.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:38 am
by Chew Terr
hyperpape wrote:Fair. Even 5kyus should know the disastrous continuation?
I'd say it's more a matter of knowing there IS a disastrous continuation. If you know that one is there, then you'll only play it when you have a real reason to prefer it, like 'Oh, I have this stone really close, so it looks like my stones won't be able to be split/cut off too badly (ideally if you can read the followup, but regardless)'. For novices, I think it's better to play the wrong moves with good ideas behind them than to play the right moves without at least thinking about why.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:40 am
by Shaddy
I'm just gonna leave this game between AGA high-dans here...
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[AGA]SZ[19]KM[7.50]TM[5400]OT[5x60 byo-yomi]
PW[Fairy2009]PB[Tarquin]BR[5d]DT[2011-07-26]PC[The KGS Go Server at
http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Tarquin [5d?\]: good luck
]RE[B+7.50]
;B[pd]BL[5390.906]C[Fairy2009 [?\]: Good night.
]
;W[dp]WL[5391.236]
;B[qp]BL[5372.805]
;W[dc]WL[5383.195]
;B[oq]BL[5366.101]
;W[qj]WL[5376.324]
;B[ql]BL[5361.171]
;W[qf]WL[5341.972]
;B[qh]BL[5356.787]
;W[of]WL[5332.002]
;B[nc]BL[5354.18]
;W[rd]WL[5326.32]
;B[pi]BL[5350.438]
;W[qc]WL[5317.765]
;B[kc]BL[5348.081]
;W[ce]WL[5293.649]
;B[pj]BL[5310.612]
;W[jp]WL[5284.54]
;B[cn]BL[5106.515]
;W[ck]WL[5230.819]
;B[cq]BL[5081.775]
;W[cp]WL[5218.581]
;B[dq]BL[5080.238]
;W[eq]WL[5194.396]
;B[bq]BL[5043.902]
;W[bp]WL[5161.16]
;B[ep]BL[5040.137]
;W[er]WL[4814.8]
;B[do]BL[5009.587]
;W[br]WL[4684.457]C[Tetriste [2d\]: since when dans play this
]
;B[bo]BL[4901.033]
;W[fp]WL[4680.006]
;B[eo]BL[4899.172]C[Tetriste [2d\]: ???
]
;W[dr]WL[4673.496]
;B[co]BL[4886.744]
;W[cr]WL[4666.244]
;B[ap]BL[4884.692]
;W[ob]WL[4653.841]C[Tetriste [2d\]: why not a3 for w
]
;B[nb]BL[4854.198]
;W[oc]WL[4651.984]C[Tetriste [2d\]: I'm confused
Tetriste [2d\]: oh wait maybe...
Tetriste [2d\]: I'm just bad at reading -.-
]
;B[hc]BL[4764.999]
;W[rp]WL[4645.467]C[Tetriste [2d\]: I'm still curious as to why w played e3 though
]
;B[ro]BL[4720.835]
;W[qo]WL[4627.624]
;B[po]BL[4693.828]
;W[qn]WL[4622.408]
;B[rn]BL[4690.621]
;W[pp]WL[4617.228]
;B[qq]BL[4683.401]
;W[pn]WL[4614.694]
;B[oo]BL[4653.646]
;W[rm]WL[4612.428]
;B[rq]BL[4650.811]
;W[sn]WL[4604.469]
;B[sp]BL[4648.414]
;W[qk]WL[4533.301]
;B[pk]BL[4606.31]
;W[qm]WL[4410.282]
;B[pl]BL[4530.577]
;W[on]WL[4399.12]
;B[no]BL[4445.754]
;W[rl]WL[4373.112]
;B[nm]BL[4407.859]
;W[nn]WL[4358.122]
;B[mn]BL[4404.895]
;W[ri]WL[4354.196]
;B[rh]BL[4381.551]
;W[si]WL[4285.73]
;B[qi]BL[4125.084]
;W[rj]WL[4229.742]
;B[sk]BL[4113.447]
;W[sh]WL[4227.751]
;B[rg]BL[4110.753]
;W[sg]WL[4225.365]
;B[rf]BL[4106.469]
;W[sf]WL[4223.565]
;B[re]BL[4103.535]
;W[se]WL[4221.416]
;B[od]BL[4091.439]
;W[qd]WL[4211.366]
;B[qe]BL[4071.132]
;W[nd]WL[4205.949]
;B[md]BL[4055.461]
;W[ne]WL[4202.413]
;B[pf]BL[4011.368]
;W[pc]WL[4174.702]
;B[pe]BL[4003.29]
;W[lf]WL[4157.024]
;B[jf]BL[3930.64]
;W[kd]WL[4113.959]
;B[lc]BL[3786.655]
;W[id]WL[3973.15]
;B[ke]BL[3701.401]
;W[ic]WL[3904.278]
;B[db]BL[3646.672]
;W[ie]WL[3835.782]
;B[le]BL[3573.17]
;W[eb]WL[3825.744]
;B[ec]BL[3567.542]
;W[fb]WL[3749.228]
;B[dd]BL[3462.118]
;W[cc]WL[3745.698]
;B[fc]BL[3455.872]
;W[gb]WL[3644.574]
;B[cd]BL[3423.739]
;W[bc]WL[3638.52]
;B[bd]BL[3402.819]
;W[cg]WL[3607.358]
;B[ef]BL[3328.741]
;W[eg]WL[3507.615]
;B[fg]BL[3310.579]
;W[eh]WL[3116.479]
;B[gf]BL[3285.563]
;W[fe]WL[3107.191]
;B[ff]BL[3263.067]
;W[ge]WL[3013.21]
;B[kj]BL[3153.657]
;W[ee]WL[3001.83]
;B[df]BL[3144.658]
;W[de]WL[2998.768]
;B[cf]BL[3143.871]
;W[bf]WL[2993.01]
;B[dg]BL[3141.989]
;W[ch]WL[2988.724]
;B[bg]BL[3053.315]
;W[bh]WL[2979.913]
;B[be]BL[3033.726]
;W[ag]WL[2976.887]
;B[dh]BL[3032.359]
;W[di]WL[2957.452]
;B[hf]BL[3004.018]
;W[if]WL[2939.66]
;B[he]BL[2990.881]
;W[gd]WL[2925.826]
;B[hd]BL[2989.595]
;W[gc]WL[2923.632]
;B[hb]BL[2976.708]
;W[ib]WL[2914.847]
;B[ia]BL[2974.133]
;W[ja]WL[2911.087]
;B[ha]BL[2968.401]
;W[ig]WL[2687.936]C[secureid [7k\]: gonna be a painful run for w
]
;B[hh]BL[2629.318]
;W[ih]WL[2666.503]
;B[ii]BL[2566.312]
;W[hi]WL[2601.022]
;B[fh]BL[2541.982]C[tom90: agreed. e3 is bad
]
;W[ji]WL[2488.126]
;B[ij]BL[2539.245]
;W[gh]WL[2483.126]
;B[hg]BL[2518.898]
;W[kb]WL[2476.09]
;B[gi]BL[1786.625]
;W[lb]WL[2467.925]
;B[kh]BL[1719.924]
;W[mb]WL[2460.704]
;B[mc]BL[1718.401]
;W[kg]WL[2416.303]
;B[jg]BL[1612.46]
;W[jh]WL[2413.149]
;B[lg]BL[1606.373]
;W[ki]WL[2408.074]
;B[lh]BL[1599.829]
;W[li]WL[2392.657]
;B[mi]BL[1568.594]
;W[jj]WL[2356.965]
;B[hj]BL[1534.032]
;W[mj]WL[2333.449]
;B[ni]BL[1518.04]
;W[ml]WL[2249.264]
;B[jr]BL[1373.446]
;W[nj]WL[2236.542]
;B[oj]BL[1265.37]
;W[jq]WL[2132.628]
;B[kr]BL[1244.799]
;W[mo]WL[2055.962]
;B[mp]BL[1183.528]
;W[lo]WL[2053.433]
;B[lp]BL[1182.736]
;W[np]WL[2048.738]
;B[op]BL[1179.116]
;W[ir]WL[2014.282]
;B[bl]BL[1026.383]
;W[kp]WL[1996.552]
;B[lq]BL[1000.982]
;W[mm]WL[1854.431]
;B[jk]BL[983.895]
;W[jl]WL[1824.793]
;B[ik]BL[903.383]
;W[kl]WL[1808.326]
;B[hr]BL[890]
;W[hq]WL[1745.162]
;B[is]BL[885.821]
;W[iq]WL[1738.304]
;B[fo]BL[832.459]
;W[gr]WL[1731.932]
;B[dj]BL[815.687]
;W[cj]WL[1706.512]
;B[ei]BL[808.379]
;W[bk]WL[1657.597]
;B[ci]BL[802.788]
;W[bi]WL[1609.963]
;B[hn]BL[766.838]
;W[mf]WL[1600.826]
;B[kf]BL[726.235]
;W[mh]WL[1577.8]
;B[me]BL[721.596]
;W[mg]WL[1572.787]
;B[kg]BL[719.505]
;W[oh]WL[1504.074]
;B[oi]BL[651.522]
;W[na]WL[1490.939]
;B[nf]BL[644.815]
;W[cl]WL[1417.785]
;B[bm]BL[536.77]
;W[in]WL[1391.952]
;B[im]BL[495.515]
;W[el]WL[1309.759]
;B[jm]BL[419.974]
;W[km]WL[1262.263]
;B[jn]BL[394.445]
;W[kn]WL[1226.713]
;B[ek]BL[356.739]
;W[dk]WL[1129.875]
;B[fl]BL[320.905]
;W[fk]WL[1039.005]
;B[ej]BL[317.225]
;W[hm]WL[1020.765]
;B[il]BL[245.983]
;W[gn]WL[999.561]
;B[io]BL[192.828]
;W[em]WL[904.265]
;B[gl]BL[174.589]
;W[gp]WL[752.248]
;B[go]BL[138.067]
;W[fn]WL[745.964]
;B[gm]BL[130.398]
;W[kk]WL[743.214]
;B[hs]BL[127.058]
;W[gs]WL[738.661]
;B[js]BL[121.816]
;W[kq]WL[736.829]
;B[lr]BL[119.936]
;W[al]WL[673.889]
;B[am]BL[105.822]
;W[ak]WL[671.567]
;B[nk]BL[96.373]
;W[mk]WL[659.567]
;B[jc]BL[74.275]
;W[jb]WL[656.907]
;B[jd]BL[22.62]
;W[nl]WL[628.154]
;B[ga]BL[7.704]
;W[fa]WL[614.066]
;B[ar]BL[4.933]
;W[hp]WL[600.679]
;B[jo]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[ho]WL[588.7]
;B[hl]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[ko]WL[585.089]
;B[om]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[ol]WL[575.684]
;B[pm]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[ok]WL[555.35]
;B[sm]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[sl]WL[547.91]
;B[en]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[fm]WL[535.562]
;B[dm]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[dl]WL[532.727]
;B[cm]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[bs]WL[525.367]
;B[so]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[ln]WL[496.364]
;B[oe]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[sm]WL[473.787]
;B[di]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[as]WL[470.231]
;B[aq]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[je]WL[464.962]
;B[ip]BL[60]OB[5]
;W[]WL[434.169]
;B[]BL[60]OB[5]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][ka][la][ma][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][ec][fc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][fd][sd][ae][be][af][bg][ah][ai][aj][bj][kj][lj][sj][lk][nk][rk][sk][ll][lm][mn][fq][gq][fr][cs][ds][es][fs]TB[kd][ld][nd][ne][lf][mf][of][qf][eg][gg][mg][ng][og][pg][qg][eh][gh][mh][nh][oh][ph][fi][hi][fj][gj][fk][gk][hk][hm][an][bn][dn][in][ao][bp][cp][dp][np][pp][rp][mq][nq][pq][sq][mr][nr][or][pr][qr][rr][sr][ks][ls][ms][ns][os][ps][qs][rs][ss]C[Tarquin [5d?\]: thanks
xedover [?\]: good game
Fairy2009 [?\]: thx.
Fairy2009 [?\]: I played badly some moves.
])
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:24 am
by daniel_the_smith
I think Shaddy just blew my mind while making my own point for me...
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:40 am
by xed_over
hyperpape wrote: Even 5kyus should know the disastrous continuation?
I guess that's whats holding me back from crossing that line... I don't know it.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:18 am
by aconley
I do see this happen a lot in my games (right around that 5-7k level),
so it is worth knowing. Sometimes Black even tries to save the cutting
stones and ends up losing the stones at the top.
$$B
$$---------------
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . O O X . . X .
$$| . . O X X O . . .
$$| . . O X . . . . .
$$| . 1 X 2 . . . . .
$$| . . O . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$---------------
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . O O X . . X .
$$| . . O X X O . . .
$$| . . O X . . . . .
$$| . 1 X 2 . . . . .
$$| . . O . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:47 pm
by EdLee
aconley wrote:$$B
$$---------------
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . O O X . . B .
$$| . . O X X O . a .
$$| . . O X . . . . .
$$| . 1 X 2 . . . . .
$$| . . O . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$---------------
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . O O X . . B .
$$| . . O X X O . a .
$$| . . O X . . . . .
$$| . 1 X 2 . . . . .
$$| . . O . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .[/go]
You probably meant
at (a) ?
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:44 pm
by aconley
Oops, yes.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:39 am
by malweth
xed_over wrote:hyperpape wrote: Even 5kyus should know the disastrous continuation?
I guess that's whats holding me back from crossing that line... I don't know it.
I have crossed that line and don't know it.
I still think an intensive study of Joseki is significantly less helpful to the DDK than the SDK. I also think it's somewhat less helpful to the SDK than the dan player. (And continuing that line of thought, it's a bit less helpful to the dan player than the pro player, but that may not be true - I have no basis).
hyperpape wrote:malweth wrote:CXUD - at 20k, if you know 10 basic joseki you're ahead of the game. Don't worry about joseki until you're at least SDK. Punishing joseki is easily a dan level topic.
I don't get these kinds of comments. Easy example: 5 kyus should know the following
is bad and the punishment.
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
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Understand that:
The only advice any of us can give is based on our own personal experience (there's no rulebook here).
Two players of the same level can have widely varying experiences. This is especially true in the kyu ranks.
The OP was listed as 20k, not 5k. Further, after CXUD clarified his rank, he is still not 5k. A 5k player can certainly engage in "dan level topics." Perhaps levels of SDK are determined by how many higher level topics have been studied.
Even when referring to books on the subject, pro players or scientists do not always agree.
My overall advice: listen to everyone, ignore everyone, and make a plan that you'll enjoy the most.