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Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:45 pm
by Loons
$$Bcm10
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm10
Folksy wisdom tells me adding an atari is bad.
$$Wcm19
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm19Yeah, doesn't seem great to me. Pushes black further into the centre (he should either extend or capture solidly). So, I don't think it's worth whatever aji it may leave.
Now, just the details of what approaches to play and when...
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:54 am
by daal
The position before this move is exactly the one I predicted at move 10. At the time, I viewed my next move as an option between something around a or b. I felt that I could handle a cut at z, so I should consider one of these two moves. Now though, it seems to me that whatever I would play, w would cut first at z and see how it goes before responding to my move. White would be happy creating complications and wouldn't mind having a group floating in the center if black had one floating there too. Makes me think I should play z myself. Z looks very thick, giving me a solid position facing the center. It looks like the right thing to do. I expect that he will play at a or b himself. I will try to respond calmly and without jealousy. White has some definite points, but has not weakened any of my handicap stones. Black has nothing to complain about.
$$Bcm10
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm10$$Wcm19
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm19
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:15 pm
by pancake
This isn't a comment about anything that is still to come, so everyone can read it, I won't hide it.
Going back a few moves.. 1 seemed like a mistake for white here.
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1Eventhough white's corner is big, the marked black stone is in a good position and black has sente. If the marked white stone was at a, I think it would be better. Anyway, black's responses were really bad. He pushed white so that white has good shape and a lot of territory, while black still has a lot of aji left and didn't gain much. The intuition was also wrong, forcing white to connect is never good.
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:21 pm
by Loons
$$Wcm19
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm19
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:16 am
by daal
I would particularly appreciate any reader's thoughts regarding the board position before this last move of mine - but please hide them! (@Pancake - your previous comment is the sort of observation I'm very interested in hearing, but I'd prefer to read that type of thing after the game. Thanks!)
$$Wcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21
I must say, I feel totally clueless. Below, you can see my first thoughts, in the order that they occurred to me (after that came some thoughts in the Bermuda triangle of a-b-g):
$$Wcm19
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm19Here are some factors that enter into my deliberations:
1. The jealousy factor. My first impulse (a) is jealous. If I'm not going to be jealous, I need to be getting something large myself. Problem is, his position on the bottom is already secure, whereas my compensation will most probably not be secure yet.
2. The aji of c6 is reminiscent of a large hemorrhoid. (I probably wouldn't be thinking about that yet, without having seen Pancake's preferable sequence two posts ago).
I'm going to dismiss a and d for now. They are too close to thickness, and they seem not only jealous but also have the tendency to lead to two weak groups.
As to the rest, I wish I knew how to evaluate them. Kirby might say: read! I tried, but there are way many possible continuations. Most of my "results" seem utterly unlikely to actually occur.
b seems like the obvious move, and I guess that I need a really good reason to play elsewhere. Were I to play c, f or g, I would not be pressuring white, so he would be free to play a double approach at r6. Would my advantage compensate? I'm going to guess "no."
The only remaining move to consider is e. What is the difference between b and e? If this is a matter of reading continuations, I'm out of my league. To me, b feels as if it might give me more leverage to reduce his bottom, whereas e might lead to me "sharing" a bit more of the corner.
I'm going with b, because it seems less wimp-like.
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:47 am
by topazg
@Daal:
Why did you reject this move earlier again?
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:17 am
by daal
topazg wrote: @Daal:
Why did you reject this move earlier again?
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1@Topazg
As you can read
here , I didn't reject it; I utterly failed to consider it. The only thought that keeps showing up in my mind regarding those stones is: "Don't encourage white to strengthen that thin connection."
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:59 am
by topazg
@Daal:
EDIT: I've just realised this area is unresolved. Treat as a spoiler only until the top right is ended!
daal wrote: As you can read
here , I didn't reject it; I utterly failed to consider it. The only thought that keeps showing up in my mind regarding those stones is: "Don't encourage white to strengthen that thin connection."
Yeah, I read it, that's why I posted my question
"Oh. I also thought about playing 7 right away, but decided that that's more of the stupid type of move"
I figured the move has the advantage of pretty much completely separating those two stones. As the Black stone would be high, even if he jumps out with his initial approach stone and you
didn't already have a stone pulled back from the 4-4 (which you do), I still don't think he can form a severe attack on it. As it is, it feels like he's going to have to take the 3-3, which can't be bad in that position?
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:02 am
by topazg
@Daal again:
$$Wcm19
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm19Is there any reason you didn't consider "z"?
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:25 am
by daal
topazg wrote: @Daal again:
$$Wcm19
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm19Is there any reason you didn't consider "z"?
@Topazg
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:48 pm
by Loons
Twenty-two seems fine. I would also have considered the attach on top, as I think I mentioned before.
$$Wcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21(Albeit I only half remember this joseki, I'm not sure if
is the best option. Or
really.
Edit: It might continue with a-b-c or something, I'm not sure.
$$Wcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21
$$Wcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21I feel this can reasonably be expected, after which I'm thinking about an invasion on one of the circled points (I have some reading to do).
I am changing direction to top and left, because I feel the area I could stake out across bottom by taking gote is not big enough.
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:20 am
by daal
$$Wcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21
$$Wcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21I'm finding this decision even harder than the last one. Basically, nothing looks particularly good. Again, the lettered moves are the ones that occurred to me listed in the order that I thought of them.
My first impulses are to respond somewhere on the top left, and that seems natural, as my hoshi stone has come under pressure. There are two reasons however that I hesitate to do so. One, is that I would be following my opponent around the board, letting him get the better big points, and two, I have a 2-1 stone advantage on the bottom right, and if I don't get sente on the top left, (and I don't see a way to do so) that advantage will be gone.
How to evaluate? Let's say, I play at f. A white response at e looks to me quite hard to deal with. I suppose I can manage, but how much of a benefit is the move at f? Again, white's secure position on the bottom left could mean trouble, i.e., while chasing o3, my corner could easily become thin.
I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and play on the top left. a looks better than d, just because I have all high stones on the left, and he has gotten strong on the top. b looks like the wrong way to use the hoshi stone. What about c? It seems more consistent with my attempt to make thickness in the center, so that's what I'm going with. I'm imagining the following continuation:
$$Wcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:42 pm
by Loons
$$Wcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21
I have some thoughts to think here, but all of them involve playing
.
$$Wcm25 Tentatively?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm25 Tentatively?I think after this invading the left should not be hard. However, if an invasion still seems possible afterwards, should 27 be at 28? Invade the 3-3 and settle top from top right? What if Daal plays 26 at 27? F18 after F15?
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:06 am
by daal
$$Wcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21
Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:23 am
by Loons
$$Wcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21
$$Wcm27
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm27After this, I think the marked white stone is not in a good place. Invading 3-3 seemed redundant if I was invading the moyo anyway.
is the best option. Or 
really.
.