Life In 19x19

Count me in. I haven't voted for a time limit, because I'm not crazy about any of them. The byoyomi limits seem extremely fast compared to the main time. 20/5 is basically blitz (never mind 30/5), which is weird when you're considering 40-120 minutes for main time.

quantumf wrote:Count me in. I haven't voted for a time limit, because I'm not crazy about any of them. The byoyomi limits seem extremely fast compared to the main time. 20/5 is basically blitz (never mind 30/5), which is weird when you're considering 40-120 minutes for main time.

I suppose overtime in tournaments I've been in has normally been "to finish the game because we need to start the next round and don't want sudden death". Most of our RL tournaments in the UK are 50 + 30/5 or 60 + 30/5

However, point taken. I'll probably do a separate poll for overtime, with byo-yomi / canadian options, and an average seconds per move vote.

The german internet-go-league uses 60 min 20/5 and I think this is totally enough time in byoyomi.

I'll join as well, although I don't like canadian overtime and would prefer 5*(15|20|30)seconds.

I totally don't understand Canadian timing; I'd prefer standard byo-yomi.

Another idea:

Instead of setting hard rank limits on who enters in what round, how about the following:

1. Take the list of participants and order by playing strength (I'd suggest using KGS ranks, and using http://senseis.xmp.net/?RankWorldwideComparison for conversions when no KGS rank is available)
2. Divide the list into 6 groups of equal size, where group 1 consists of the weakest players, group 2 the next strongest, etc.
3. In the first round, group 1 plays group 2. The winners become the winners bracket, the losers the losers bracket.
4. In the second round, group 3 enters and plays against the winners bracket. The losers move to the losers bracket, the winners remain in the winners bracket
5. In the third round and further rounds, the next groups enter and play against the winners bracket, while the losers bracket also play.
6. When all groups have entered, the tournament continues as per normal double knockout rules.

Example:

Suppose there are 48 player, so there are 6 groups of 8 players.

In round 1 groups 1 & 2 play (16 players total).
After round 1, there are 8 players in the winners bracket, and 8 in the losers bracket.

In round 2 group 3 plays against the 8 players in the winners bracket (The losers bracket doesn't play)
After round 2, there are 8 players in the winners bracket, and 16 in the losers bracket (8 from round 1, 8 from round 2)

In round 3 group 4 plays against the 8 players in the winners bracket, while the losers bracket also plays. Losers in the losers bracket are eliminated.
After round 3, there are 8 players in the winners bracket, and 16 in the losers bracket (8 losers from round 3, 8 winners from the round 3 losers bracket)

In round 4 group 5 plays against the 8 players in the winners bracket, while the losers bracket also plays. Losers in the losers bracket are eliminated.
After round 4, there are 8 players in the winners bracket, and 16 in the losers bracket (8 losers from round 4, 8 winners from the round 4 losers bracket)

In round 5 group 6 plays against the 8 players in the winners bracket, while the losers bracket also plays. Losers in the losers bracket are eliminated.
After round 5, there are 8 players in the winners bracket, and 16 in the losers bracket (8 losers from round 5, 8 winners from the round 5 losers bracket)
Now there are no more groups to enter, so the tournament continues as a normal double knockout.

This works pretty well, regardless of group size, as long as the groups are equal size (though group 6 can be smaller without much trouble)

Jonas wrote:The german internet-go-league uses 60 min 20/5 and I think this is totally enough time in byoyomi.

I guess it's just what a person gets used to, similarly for the comment about preferring Japanese byoyomi. I've become used to thinking in byoyomi, because we usually play with longer times (25/10). 20/5 is 15 secs a move, which is way to quick to do anything more than superficial trivial reading, so you need to concentrate on playing more of your game in main time.

quantumf wrote:

Jonas wrote:The german internet-go-league uses 60 min 20/5 and I think this is totally enough time in byoyomi.

I guess it's just what a person gets used to, similarly for the comment about preferring Japanese byoyomi. I've become used to thinking in byoyomi, because we usually play with longer times (25/10). 20/5 is 15 secs a move, which is way to quick to do anything more than superficial trivial reading, so you need to concentrate on playing more of your game in main time.

However, with Canadian time is that it isn't the same as 15 secs byo-yomi. Often you'll have sequences where you'll play 5 or 6 moves in a row that are relative no-brainers. All of a sudden it's 14 moves in 4:40, which is 20 seconds per move. In reality, half the moves in a given canadian overtime period often don't require a great deal of thought, but regardless, the majority of people who play online seem more comfortable with traditional byo-yomi. 25/10 is quite possible if people prefer this though, most of my IGS games are 1 minute + 25/10, and basically the whole game is played in overtime. I always feel overtime should be designed to draw the game to a close, not to play out a full normal thinking game in. That's what the 40 minutes basic time is for.

HermanHiddema wrote:Another idea:

Instead of setting hard rank limits on who enters in what round, how about the following:

1. Take the list of participants and order by playing strength (I'd suggest using KGS ranks, and using http://senseis.xmp.net/?RankWorldwideComparison for conversions when no KGS rank is available)
2. Divide the list into 6 groups of equal size, where group 1 consists of the weakest players, group 2 the next strongest, etc.
3. In the first round, group 1 plays group 2. The winners become the winners bracket, the losers the losers bracket.
4. In the second round, group 3 enters and plays against the winners bracket. The losers move to the losers bracket, the winners remain in the winners bracket
5. In the third round and further rounds, the next groups enter and play against the winners bracket, while the losers bracket also play.
6. When all groups have entered, the tournament continues as per normal double knockout rules.

Example:

Suppose there are 48 player, so there are 6 groups of 8 players.

In round 1 groups 1 & 2 play (16 players total).
After round 1, there are 8 players in the winners bracket, and 8 in the losers bracket.

In round 2 group 3 plays against the 8 players in the winners bracket (The losers bracket doesn't play)
After round 2, there are 8 players in the winners bracket, and 16 in the losers bracket (8 from round 1, 8 from round 2)

In round 3 group 4 plays against the 8 players in the winners bracket, while the losers bracket also plays. Losers in the losers bracket are eliminated.
After round 3, there are 8 players in the winners bracket, and 16 in the losers bracket (8 losers from round 3, 8 winners from the round 3 losers bracket)

In round 4 group 5 plays against the 8 players in the winners bracket, while the losers bracket also plays. Losers in the losers bracket are eliminated.
After round 4, there are 8 players in the winners bracket, and 16 in the losers bracket (8 losers from round 4, 8 winners from the round 4 losers bracket)

In round 5 group 6 plays against the 8 players in the winners bracket, while the losers bracket also plays. Losers in the losers bracket are eliminated.
After round 5, there are 8 players in the winners bracket, and 16 in the losers bracket (8 losers from round 5, 8 winners from the round 5 losers bracket)
Now there are no more groups to enter, so the tournament continues as a normal double knockout.

This works pretty well, regardless of group size, as long as the groups are equal size (though group 6 can be smaller without much trouble)

Actually, I was intending on trying to get the draw into exactly this format - thanks for posting it in such detail

topazg wrote:However, with Canadian time is that it isn't the same as 15 secs byo-yomi. Often you'll have sequences where you'll play 5 or 6 moves in a row that are relative no-brainers. All of a sudden it's 14 moves in 4:40, which is 20 seconds per move. In reality, half the moves in a given canadian overtime period often don't require a great deal of thought, but regardless, the majority of people who play online seem more comfortable with traditional byo-yomi. 25/10 is quite possible if people prefer this though, most of my IGS games are 1 minute + 25/10, and basically the whole game is played in overtime. I always feel overtime should be designed to draw the game to a close, not to play out a full normal thinking game in. That's what the 40 minutes basic time is for.

If only we could use bonus time

topazg wrote:Actually, I was intending on trying to get the draw into exactly this format - thanks for posting it in such detail

Great minds think alike

Sounds like fun. Sign me up.
I'll try my best to be able to play, but it depends a little bit on the date's and time settings.

120 min per person, or more, will be a definite deal-breaker for me. I'm not going to sit that long behind a computer screen for just one game.
I would prefer 60 or 90 min, but with shorter time I guess I'll still play.


* I hope I don't have to play againse HermanHiddema. I lost against him in a tournament 1 week ago.

kirkmc wrote:I totally don't understand Canadian timing; I'd prefer standard byo-yomi.

Agree.

Why does "Canadian" timing exist in Go at all? The only reason I know of is because that is the only timing used by IGS for many years. And the only reason I know of that IGS used it, is because IGS was largely an adaptation of ICS, the old internet chess server.

Or were tournaments using "Canadian" time before IGS came along? And if so why? And was it called "Canadian" back then?

zinger wrote:

kirkmc wrote:I totally don't understand Canadian timing; I'd prefer standard byo-yomi.

Agree.

Why does "Canadian" timing exist in Go at all? The only reason I know of is because that is the only timing used by IGS for many years. And the only reason I know of that IGS used it, is because IGS was largely an adaptation of ICS, the old internet chess server.

Or were tournaments using "Canadian" time before IGS came along? And if so why? And was it called "Canadian" back then?

All of your questions are answered in this interesting read: http://pages.infinit.net/steven/byoyomi.htm

zinger wrote:

kirkmc wrote:I totally don't understand Canadian timing; I'd prefer standard byo-yomi.

Agree.

Why does "Canadian" timing exist in Go at all? The only reason I know of is because that is the only timing used by IGS for many years. And the only reason I know of that IGS used it, is because IGS was largely an adaptation of ICS, the old internet chess server.

Or were tournaments using "Canadian" time before IGS came along? And if so why? And was it called "Canadian" back then?

It is the only form of overtime used in British over the board tournaments.

I think one reason why canadian time is most used in real-board games is simply because it was the only practical way to deal with byoyomi when there were no digital-clocks around. In germany there are still many many chessclocks used in rl-tournaments, therefore the canadian byoyomi is the prevalent one.

Sign me up.