Life In 19x19

In that case I wouldn't even bother with trying to become good - you are never going to get to a point where you don't feel ashamed of your playing if you don't play a lot of games beforehand imo. What's the point to studying if you are never going to use it? I suppose it would maybe be fun to solve problems or helpful for enjoying pro play, but surely inefficient study (studying without playing at all cannot be efficient, especially for beginners) for these more peripheral enjoyments is not really worth the time?

Why would you even bother to get better, if you don't intend to play? Or would you play after getting better?

If you have problems to face defeat and disappointment Go might be the therapy instead of just another problem. Losing a game of Go doesn't victimize you it happens to literally all of us approximately 50% of the time (you need a realistic estimate of your strength and the willingness to take handicap, that is all).

PS Currently your estimate of your strength is several hundred kyu off, there is no such thing as a 500 kyu, you are way stronger.

Ryuukun wrote:It's not something like OGA, it's something that affects my whole life not only playing go.
All I wanted was to know if that is even possible, eventually get some good resources for learning and that's it.
I do not want to discuss this here, it's not what I intended to do, I just gave some guy the reason for my sittuation since he asked why I wouldn't play.
I do not expect anyone to understand my point of view, it's not a normal point of view anyways.

Look I suffer from depression and anxiety in general, and I had a psychotic break in my 20s, have spent the last decade heavily medicated etc, etc. If you don't face these things they win. There's no point studying this game and not playing it because it is just feeding the issue that's stopping you from playing in the first place. CBT has me doing stuff that makes me anxious purely to show me it's not as bad as I fear it to be. If the thought of playing go makes you anxious it should be approached in the same way. They don't have to be ranked games, they don't have to be on your main account, you can have an account for when you're really nervous. There are ways to tackle these kinds of things, avoiding them just reinforces the worries and anxiety.

Whether you play go or not doesn't really matter, but if you carry this attitude forwards into life (like I did for years) it'll just make things a lot worse for you.

Boidhre wrote:

Ryuukun wrote:It's not something like OGA, it's something that affects my whole life not only playing go.
All I wanted was to know if that is even possible, eventually get some good resources for learning and that's it.
I do not want to discuss this here, it's not what I intended to do, I just gave some guy the reason for my sittuation since he asked why I wouldn't play.
I do not expect anyone to understand my point of view, it's not a normal point of view anyways.

Look I suffer from depression and anxiety in general, and I had a psychotic break in my 20s, have spent the last decade heavily medicated etc, etc. If you don't face these things they win. There's no point studying this game and not playing it because it is just feeding the issue that's stopping you from playing in the first place. CBT has me doing stuff that makes me anxious purely to show me it's not as bad as I fear it to be. If the thought of playing go makes you anxious it should be approached in the same way. They don't have to be ranked games, they don't have to be on your main account, you can have an account for when you're really nervous. There are ways to tackle these kinds of things, avoiding them just reinforces the worries and anxiety.

Whether you play go or not doesn't really matter, but if you carry this attitude forwards into life (like I did for years) it'll just make things a lot worse for you.

We're the same then, but unlike you I'm just at the beginning of it. Several breakdowns included. I know that I'm unable to keep playing like I'm now, but with go I felt something that I really haven't felt in a long time, Interesst. I want to play but it's just impossible for me right now so I want to use the time until I eventually get over my fears, with learning and becomming better.

Ryuukun wrote:

Boidhre wrote:

Ryuukun wrote:It's not something like OGA, it's something that affects my whole life not only playing go.
All I wanted was to know if that is even possible, eventually get some good resources for learning and that's it.
I do not want to discuss this here, it's not what I intended to do, I just gave some guy the reason for my sittuation since he asked why I wouldn't play.
I do not expect anyone to understand my point of view, it's not a normal point of view anyways.

Look I suffer from depression and anxiety in general, and I had a psychotic break in my 20s, have spent the last decade heavily medicated etc, etc. If you don't face these things they win. There's no point studying this game and not playing it because it is just feeding the issue that's stopping you from playing in the first place. CBT has me doing stuff that makes me anxious purely to show me it's not as bad as I fear it to be. If the thought of playing go makes you anxious it should be approached in the same way. They don't have to be ranked games, they don't have to be on your main account, you can have an account for when you're really nervous. There are ways to tackle these kinds of things, avoiding them just reinforces the worries and anxiety.

Whether you play go or not doesn't really matter, but if you carry this attitude forwards into life (like I did for years) it'll just make things a lot worse for you.

We're the same then, but unlike you I'm just at the beginning of it. Several breakdowns included. I know that I'm unable to keep playing like I'm now, but with go I felt something that I really haven't felt in a long time, Interesst. I want to play but it's just impossible for me right now so I want to use the time until I eventually get over my fears, with learning and becomming better.

You'll get over those fears by playing games until it becomes something routine for you to do. Start a new account that no one knows is you, start at 30k on KGS and just play games. The only person who need know you're winning or losing is you. Get used to losing. That's the hard part. Once you get used to the idea of losing not being the end of the world the game gets a lot more fun.

I have this too, although it doesn't totally stop me from playing, but if I just leave it to how I feel I just play online less and less until I'm not playing at all. I get around it by just loading Kgs and immediately starting auto match before I get a chance to think about it. I almost always get a game before I decide not to play etc. Afer just a few moves I'm over it once I'm playing. Its the getting started that I find hard.

Boidhre wrote:Get used to losing. That's the hard part. Once you get used to the idea of losing not being the end of the world the game gets a lot more fun.

Hmm, on reflection this could be interpreted wrong. What I mean here is that one needs to learn not to take losing as a judgement against their value as a person, i.e. not catastrophise in CBT terms. Instead one has to manage to see a loss as just one result out of a few thousand and keep it in perspective.

I think we should take the OP at his word that what bothers him is playing poorly, not losing. In a way it's all the same--either way, the only cure is to forge ahead and keep playing, but it's still a different aspect of perfectionism.

Moin Ryuukun,

I’m also German, hailing from the heart of the Lueneburg Heath, and BTW I’ve added you to my KGS buddy list (I’m “trohde” there).

Ryuukun wrote:[..]

Yes, I know I'm weird.

Are you aware that we all are? Just everybody in their respective colours?

I’ve been thereabout … over-anxiety, panic attacks, severe depression, etc. (before my Go revival). Some of it still prevails, like extreme insomnia and general discombombulation, etc.

Tell you what: Playing Go with good people helps me. Seems like there are some, uhm, I don’t quite know how to name it, perhaps coincidences, perhaps something like those [cough] morphogenetic fields [/cough] as my humble progress in Go seems to coincide with humble progress In Real Life, “psycho-socially” and such. But then again, perhaps it’s “just” the age.

Anyway, when I take longer pauses from KGS, I play/teach a few Real Life People in our local weekly Go meeting (usually W gives 4-5 stones—on 13x13). I do Tsumego on the iPad. I read Go literature, albeit very moderately. And some time in my next game or after, be it In Real Life or on KGS, I realize that I’ve become somewhat stronger, I’m reading somewhat further, playing somewhat more subtle and foresightfully, etc.

These days I’m thankful for “somewhat”. And I’m glad that I’m still doing therapy. And I’m very, very thankful for Go.


Herzliche Grüße, vielleicht spielen wir uns ja mal

Tom

Here's a suggestion:

• Find a study partner and sit down across the table from him (real or virtually.)
• Start playing a game, with the intent to win. But instead of you playing, and him playing, talk about the moves together for each side, and try to discover the best move based on both of your opinions, for both sides. Look at each situation carefully until you are both happy that you have found a good move. Put stones on the board to analyze if you like.
• Afterward look back -- one side will have won! See if you can find which moves were a mistake and make them better.
• When you both think you have really played a good game show a stronger player and see if he agrees with your moves. If not, he should be able to give you some specific advice on particular moves that you can learn from.

Don't treat it like a game where you make a move and if it sucked you're stuck with it forever. Investigate and find the best moves that you can understand. Treat it like a piece of art that you're both working on, to make it as beautiful as possible. Then learn how to make it more beautiful next time.

That'll get you better faster than playing real games will, and maybe you will be less ashamed of the result when you can take the time and enlist the help of others to make it good.

Good points by cata. Ryuukun, does your aversion to playing only refer to competing games or also to teaching games? If only the former is affected, there is help. On KGS there is a function especially for teaching games.

Some aspects of the game can only be learned by actually playing. However you can minimize this necessity to play. When I first decided to play, I only studied the beginner section of Sensei's Library. After a few weeks doing that, I signed up to KGS and immediately got to 20k. A bit later I discovered 321go.org, did the course and the exercises there. This took me another two months and I got to 15k (ok, I also played a few games on KGS, maybe a dozen).

As Magicwand suggested earlier, you can improve very much by just studying professional games, this may be an option for you. However in another thread where I asked the question how much you can progress from studying professional games, it was said that you should be around 8k at least, so that you roughly understand why moves were made. One person made it from 8k to 1d, another from 1d to 5d. But I don't know how long it took them, how many games they studied and which games.

So there is still a gap from 15k to 8k that you would have to bridge somehow. Maybe teaching games are an option for you, e.g. from a fellow German, if you prefer discussing in your native language. I could help you to pass the 8k hurdle, if you like (after you have done 321go ), so you can contact me for this (better here at L19, since I am rarely on at KGS these days).

Good luck.

cata wrote:Here's a suggestion:

• Find a study partner and sit down across the table from him (real or virtually.)
• Start playing a game, with the intent to win. But instead of you playing, and him playing, talk about the moves together for each side, and try to discover the best move based on both of your opinions, for both sides. Look at each situation carefully until you are both happy that you have found a good move. Put stones on the board to analyze if you like.
• Afterward look back -- one side will have won! See if you can find which moves were a mistake and make them better.
• When you both think you have really played a good game show a stronger player and see if he agrees with your moves. If not, he should be able to give you some specific advice on particular moves that you can learn from.

Don't treat it like a game where you make a move and if it sucked you're stuck with it forever. Investigate and find the best moves that you can understand. Treat it like a piece of art that you're both working on, to make it as beautiful as possible. Then learn how to make it more beautiful next time.

That'll get you better faster than playing real games will, and maybe you will be less ashamed of the result when you can take the time and enlist the help of others to make it good.

Good advice, but I'm kind of skeptical about the bolded portion. I mean, I've always been told that playing as many real games as you can is the fastest way to get better. But yeah, great advice, I'll probably use it myself.

As Guo Juan said at a study session, "Enough blah blah, time to touch stones".

Ryuukun wrote:

Uberdude wrote:But why don't you want to play? Playing Go is fun!

Go is wonderful but I have unsolved Psychic Problems which hold me back from playing.
Sounds weird to bring together psychic problems with the game of go but it's sadly that way for me.

So since I can't play I wondered if I can still become good. Becuase when I'm good I can play since I don't feel ashamed of my own bad play anymore.

Could you overcome some of your issues by playing computer Go programs before you move on to human opponents? I'd played dozens of games vs my Kindle and Many Faces of Go before I challenged a human - and that was still online. I've never played a game of Go face to face.

Nice thing about computers - they are not judgemental about how pretty our games are.

I don't play nearly as much as I should. I suppose I have a fear of playing too. One of the things I do to overcome the fear of playing is to use auto match on KGS. It makes it impersonal. However, you will discover that the more you use auto match the more you wind up playing the same people and then it isn't so impersonal anymore. But by then, perhaps you won't be so concerned anymore about your abilities or the impression you are making. Sometimes you just have to force yourself to face your fears. You can study all you want, but without the experience of games to make your study meaningful I doubt you can get very strong.

Terri