Life In 19x19

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Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=5797

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Re: Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:07 am
by EiggHead
If you're looking for material on shape ...

For free is Charles Matthews' Shape Up - http://senseis.xmp.net/?ShapeUp

There is also Making Good Shape from Kiseido - http://senseis.xmp.net/?MakingGoodShape

Re: Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:15 am
by jts
The best way to learn shape is probably just to review your games carefully, and maybe study some tesuji, but here is some quick reading material in Sensei's Library:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?FourBasicShapes
http://senseis.xmp.net/?SixGoodAndSixBadShapes
http://senseis.xmp.net/?BasicInstinct

Re: Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:00 pm
by Drewch
Thanks Eigghead and jts. I will definitely be looking into those readings.

I also have another update, I've gotten 12k now. On day 19:)

Here is the game that got me to 12k. I think I've learned some really good things about attacking with a few lectures from some high level players.

Here is the game, I'd love a review! Thanks a lot guys! I'm over half way there now :)



Status:
DAY 1 (April 8): 16k
DAY 4 (April 11): 15k
DAY 6 (April 14): 14k
DAY 9 (April 17): 13k
DAY 19 (April 27): 12k

Re: Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:10 pm
by jts
Quite a good game, I think. You're doing a good job internalizing what you're learning. My thoughts are to be taken with salt, of course.

13: Excellent job noting the shape weakness. However, exploiting a broken shape isn't always a good idea if your opponent can easily sacrifice for a good position.

24: At this point I would say white has gotten a decent position, despite the broken shape. You did push W down to the 1st/2nd line and capture a stone, but you've used six stones in an inefficient shape to capture the stone, and the cde12 wall looks very efficient. Even though B21 at d12 is not "broken" shape in the classical sense, W's position is still very bad even if he cuts B.

25: With a seventh stone added to capture, B's position becomes inferior. Distinguish between stones that serve a purpose and stones that are useless. D10 does not, for example, cut two black groups apart, or cause a liberty problem for Black, or give White some useful forcing move. When a stone still serves some purpose, capturing it firmly may seem slow, but in many circumstances will be good style. When a stone is useless - especially when it is "blighted" by it's proximity to a solid enemy wall - capturing it firmly is a tiny endgame move.

39: Excellent! Don't dignify a 1st line move with a local response at this stage in the game.

41: You've violated a an important rule here... do you know what it is?

65: Again, excellent job on not following W around. I'm not a big fan of this move, though: I would prefer N4 or N5, to firmly surround the doomed white group.

67, 69, 71, 73: Another important rule has been violated. Do you know what it is?

83: A mistake everyone makes at least once. When you read, remember to count liberties... especially when groups are up against the edge. Let's hope it will only be once.

99: Not bad, but F11 (breaking W's shape) seems better: W remains on the run.

123, 125, 127: B123 and B125 are good, aggressive moves because W is in imminent danger of capture, so keeping W's liberties low is an effective way of bossing the W stones around. You should know, however, that jumping ahead is often more effective in fights likes this, since sometimes you can't win an immediate capturing race.

One final thought: you did a decent job of using more time than your opponent in this game. However, at the point when you were asking for more time you were still using about 3s to 20s per move, which is considerably less than your 30s byo-yomi periods.

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:17 pm
by EdLee

Re: Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:32 pm
by Drewch
jts wrote:Quite a good game, I think. You're doing a good job internalizing what you're learning. My thoughts are to be taken with salt, of course.


I appreciate it! Any comments are good ones to think about! Yours are good though! Thanks!
jts wrote:13: Excellent job noting the shape weakness. However, exploiting a broken shape isn't always a good idea if your opponent can easily sacrifice for a good position.

24: At this point I would say white has gotten a decent position, despite the broken shape. You did push W down to the 1st/2nd line and capture a stone, but you've used six stones in an inefficient shape to capture the stone, and the cde12 wall looks very efficient. Even though B21 at d12 is not "broken" shape in the classical sense, W's position is still very bad even if he cuts B.


25: With a seventh stone added to capture, B's position becomes inferior. Distinguish between stones that serve a purpose and stones that are useless. D10 does not, for example, cut two black groups apart, or cause a liberty problem for Black, or give White some useful forcing move. When a stone still serves some purpose, capturing it firmly may seem slow, but in many circumstances will be good style. When a stone is useless - especially when it is "blighted" by it's proximity to a solid enemy wall - capturing it firmly is a tiny endgame move.

All good points, thanks!
jts wrote:39: Excellent! Don't dignify a 1st line move with a local response at this stage in the game.
65: Again, excellent job on not following W around. I'm not a big fan of this move, though: I would prefer N4 or N5, to firmly surround the doomed white group.

Thanks!, yeah I agree, I should have attacked that group instead

jts wrote:41: You've violated a an important rule here... do you know what it is?

Is it that I shouldn't be attacking by attaching?

jts wrote:67, 69, 71, 73: Another important rule has been violated. Do you know what it is?


I think I am hitting a nail with a hammer into a weak object? lol, or directing him right into my weak group

jts wrote:83: A mistake everyone makes at least once. When you read, remember to count liberties... especially when groups are up against the edge. Let's hope it will only be once.

Yes, bad reading =\

jts wrote:99: Not bad, but F11 (breaking W's shape) seems better: W remains on the run.

Definitely.

jts wrote:123, 125, 127: B123 and B125 are good, aggressive moves because W is in imminent danger of capture, so keeping W's liberties low is an effective way of bossing the W stones around. You should know, however, that jumping ahead is often more effective in fights likes this, since sometimes you can't win an immediate capturing race.

One final thought: you did a decent job of using more time than your opponent in this game. However, at the point when you were asking for more time you were still using about 3s to 20s per move, which is considerably less than your 30s byo-yomi periods.

[/quote]

Ok will think of that next time (jumping ahead). Also, yeah I guess I shouldn't have been concerned about time with 30s byoyomi

THanks jts!

Re:

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:38 pm
by Drewch
EdLee wrote:


Thanks EdLee, very important points for me to think about and look into as usual! Much appreciated!

Re: Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:39 pm
by jts
On 41: Yes, exactly. Don't attack by attaching (unless you can read out a good result). Attack at a distance, by surrounding, by hemming in, by preventing a base.

On 67, etc.: Pretty much. The key mistake you made was to try to surround a group by attaching to it. But when your stones are next to his, it's pretty easy for him to outmaneuver them just by crawling out. To make nets you need to jump back. (Surrounding by jumping back is a special case of "attack at a distance".) Then, as a secondary problem, you created a "family feud", where every time you strengthen one side of your stones, you weaken the other side.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:17 am
by EdLee
Drewch, jts:
jts wrote:67, 69, 71, 73: Another important rule has been violated. Do you know what it is?
jts wrote:41: You've violated a an important rule here... do you know what it is?
Drewch wrote:Is it that I shouldn't be attacking by attaching?
jts wrote:On 41: Yes, exactly. Don't attack by attaching (unless you can read out a good result).
Attack at a distance, by surrounding, by hemming in, by preventing a base.
Eventually, these "rules" will become a hindrance. (Perhaps they already are. :))
Eventually (and as always), we just want to play the "best" move.
If the best move is to attach, so be it.
If the best move is to attack, but from a short distance, so be it.
If the best move is to attack, but from a medium distance, so be it.
If the best move is to attack, but from far away, so be it.
If the best move is to tenuki, so be it.
If the best move is to kill outright, kill.
If the best move is an empty triangle (or other ugly dumpling shapes), do it!
If the best move is a broken shape, do it!
And so on. :) It all depends on the EXACT board position.
Some of us (maybe adults in the Western world) pick up all "these" rules from other "teachers." :)
Then one day, we meet a good-level pro, "You have too many rules! :evil:" -- I have seen this in more than one occasion. :)
It does not matter what the "rules" say -- forget about "important rules" -- if it works, play it!
Eventually, we have to throw away all these "rules" and just play the "best" move --
but that day seems very far away. :)

Re: Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:18 am
by jts
Whether you want to call it a rule, or would rather dig out some fancy word like "heuristic" or "principle", I don't think Drewch will be at the point where he's ready to ignore it until he has long since lost the instinct (which lots of beginners have; which I certainly had) that you can surround a group by attaching to it.

Re: Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:46 pm
by Bill Spight
A few comments. :)

Re: Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:08 pm
by Drewch
Thanks Bill!

jts, Edlee,

I see what you guys are both saying. I'll definitely keep that in mind. Just knowing about the "rules" is good because I know that it should be probably the first move I consider, and then try to find something better. Sometimes I don't even think about a move that I'm supposed to be doing "almost" everytime. So at least know that I know the "rule", I can start with it as my best move while I think about a better.

Re: Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:53 pm
by Drewch
Been stuck at around 12k for 1.5 weeks or so. I've been told the weakest part of my game is life and death. I started off playing as many games as I could for experience, but I am going to turn back to doing maybe 100 L&D problems a day and one game, instead of playing mass games. I think this will help me break through the barrier I am currently at. What do you guys think?

Here is a game I recently played:

Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:37 pm
by EdLee
Many, many basic shape problems. It's a very long journey, with tens or hundreds of thousands of steps... :)

Re: Goal: 16k -> 9k in 60 days

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:35 am
by Drewch
Thanks EdLee,

I think something I need to do is just be more aware of my moves while I am playing, perhaps play slower and really think about shape and considering multiple moves per move. Hopefully I can start rectifying my shape problems in my next few games.

Thanks for the review!
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