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Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:45 pm
by Boidhre
$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:53 pm
by EdLee
Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote: Very unsure about this move, but I think it's forcing and I think it strengthens me on the left.
How is it forcing? Could you show your variations.
Re:
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:08 pm
by Boidhre
EdLee wrote: Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote: Very unsure about this move, but I think it's forcing and I think it strengthens me on the left.
How is it forcing? Could you show your variations.
Ed,
W plays elsewhere:
$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:07 pm
by EdLee
Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote: W plays elsewhere:
$$Wm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm21 Yes... how does this make
forcing? (In other words, for
to be forcing,
W has to suffer some huge damage after
tenuki -- could you show the damage?)
Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:29 am
by Celebrir
$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
If he doesn't want to fight and fears his weakness, I'll just take the profit.
Besides something like this might become intresting soon:
$$Wm21 Dia. 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm21 Dia. 3
Re:
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:12 am
by Boidhre
EdLee wrote: Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote: W plays elsewhere:
$$Wm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm21 Yes... how does this make
forcing? (In other words, for
to be forcing,
W has to suffer some huge damage after
tenuki -- could you show the damage?)
Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:15 am
by Boidhre
$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
I think I have to take the trade. It's a poor trade for me, I see that now but I'm unsure if I could have saved those cutting stones anyway. Perhaps I should have tried to though.
This makes miai of a and b:
$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:13 am
by EdLee
Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote: Hmm, I thought it was just damage not huge damage. If it's huge damage it's not forcing as White can afford to give up those two stones to secure the rest of the top.
That's what "forcing" means -- that W MUST reply. If W does not have to reply, then how is it "forcing" ?
For Boidhre, but after this fight is finished,
Besides, W does not have to give up anything, because W (b) is sente -- from your post about (a) and (b) being miai:
$$Wm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm21
Re:
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:15 am
by Boidhre
EdLee wrote: Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote: Hmm, I thought it was just damage not huge damage. If it's huge damage it's not forcing as White can afford to give up those two stones to secure the rest of the top.
That's what "forcing" means -- that W MUST reply. If W does not have to reply, then how is it "forcing" ?
Besides, W does not have to give up anything, because W (b) is sente -- from your post about (a) and (b) being miai:
$$Wm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm21
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:27 am
by EdLee
Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote: Hmm, I thought it was just damage not huge damage.
Here's another way to think about it: every of your
moves, unless you're killing yourself like self-atari, or filling in a neutral point (pass),
as long as it's taking even 0.5 points of territory on the board, it's doing "some" damage to
--
if this were the entire meaning of "forcing," then practically every
move would be forcing.
Clearly, this is not the case.
"Forcing" means your opponent MUST reply, or Game Over for him -- this is the only possible meaning.
Having said that, just because a move is forcing does not necessarily mean it's good!
It can be a BAD forcing move -- yes, your opponent must reply, but he is happy to do it! --
because the result hurts you or helps him!
Distinguishing good sente moves from bad ones is another very deep topic.
Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:06 am
by Celebrir
$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:39 am
by Boidhre
$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:59 am
by Celebrir
$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
I think the worst that can happen is this:
$$cm1 Dia.4
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm1 Dia.4But I don't think this fight can be good for B. This doesn't work:
$$cm1 Dia. 5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm1 Dia. 5My initial plan was to tennuki completly, but then I got this idea:
$$Wcm21 Dia. 6
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21 Dia. 6Of course there are several possibilities for
My intention is that he has to defend the corner or I'll get the move at 'a' Besides this should help me even more with the fight at Dia. 4
Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:05 am
by Boidhre
$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners: W:0 B:0
Re: 167 - Boidhre vs Celebrir
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:09 am
by hyperpape
Is this wishful thinking? After
should black play towards the outside at
a or
b ?
$$Wcm21 Dia. 6
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21 Dia. 6Of course there are several possibilities for
My intention is that he has to defend the corner or I'll get the move at 'a' Besides this should help me even more with the fight at Dia. 4
forcing? (In other words, for 
tenuki -- could you show the damage?)
moves, unless you're killing yourself like self-atari, or filling in a neutral point (pass),
--
My intention is that he has to defend the corner or I'll get the move at 'a' Besides this should help me even more with the fight at Dia. 4
should black play towards the outside at a or b?