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#176 - Blake vs. skydyr

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=6501

Page 3 of 5

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:40 pm
by illluck
Regarding Blake's comment: agree with the possibility to make the side uninteresting, but definitely don't agree with giving a ponnuki (leading to a much stronger wall) for no real reason (especially because after that sequence black can kill the corner).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 3 X X . . . . .
$$ | 6 1 X X O X X . . ,
$$ | . 4 O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . 8 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]


I would seriously consider playing as below directly because right now a pincer by black on the left side looks pretty big.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White 17
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 4 X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 3 O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


If black plays 5 at 4, then white can tenuki and leave the cut aji.

Edit: just looked at ed's comment, perhaps extending directly is better than my proposed sequence of playing hane first, but then a black hane feels kinda annoying, so it's hard to decide.

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:17 pm
by hyperpape
Illluck:
I'm going to ignore all context and take this to mean I made the right choices in our game and shall surely win.

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:23 pm
by illluck
@Hyperpape:
Yeah, I definitely felt I played some strange moves in that one (or rather, it feels like I got really busy in that game) XD But I don't feel like I've really fallen that far behind yet (if at all). Bring it! :rambo:

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:08 pm
by hyperpape
illluck:
It was definitely a joke. As for what I'm thinking about our game, you'll have to wait and read the hide tags. I'm giving away nothing.

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:06 am
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm18
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . 1 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


A general idea of what I've been considering:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 7 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . 1 1 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . 3 . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O M . . . . . . 3 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


The extensions down the side, the keima, and the kosumi are all ways I could strengthen the top left to prepare for a dual-purpose extension down the side to get rid of aji from c6. The pincers serve the same purpose, but I feel they are less likely to end in sente, although they do take a big point at the same time. The tenuki to the bottom right is an idea of mutual damage, and might work well with a turn at the marked spot following.

I suppose I could also start a fight with the one-space low pincer like so:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 1 7 . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . 6 8 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


It does let me get 5 in, but I'm concerned that I wouldn't have time to capitalize on it.

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:39 pm
by Blake
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White 19
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


White 19. To be honest, this is more of a probe than anything... I want to see how Black responds to this press. If he is submissive, it will help to negate the thickness ont he bottom left while building up a wall for myself, always desirable in a handicap game. And, of course, the corner is still open. Personally, I hate playing the 2-space high pincer, and this is why.

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:47 am
by skydyr
I know the honest move is the one space jump, but I'm kind of tempted to play the marked trick play to see what he does. I've never actually had it come up in a game. Of course, I'm pretty sure he knows it too.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


You know, he says he's rusty... what the heck. It's the fun move.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:56 am
by topazg
I've no idea about Blake, but I don't know that trick play

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:43 am
by illluck
That looks similar to the 18 and a half point trickplay:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Not sure how the difference placement affects the sequence, though. Looks complicated.

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:27 pm
by Blake
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This black move is bizarre. Not what I expected at all. Usually, this is either a mistake on my part (a misreading), a mistake on my opponent's part, or a trick. Since this is such a non-obvious move to play, I think it's a trick.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . B B B O . . X . ,
$$ | . B O O X X . . . .
$$ | . O O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]


This is what I read if I try to push into the jump. I'll end up with the corner. I think the thought may be to sacrifice these stones and shut me in. My reading is vague beyond this point (reading is never my strong point), but I can't see how this will turn out well for Black. I don't see how the white group can be shut in.

What's the harm? I'm going to go along with the play and see what happens.

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:51 pm
by illluck
Huh, apparently this trickplay isn't that well-known among western players. I should try this sometimes :p


Edit:
For reference:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------
$$ | . . . . 0 . . . . .
$$ | . . O 6 7 8 i . . .
$$ | . d . 5 O 9 . . . .
$$ | f B B B O a . X . ,
$$ | h B O O X X . . . .
$$ | 4 O O 2 O g . . . .
$$ | . 3 X 1 e c . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]


b at 7. Note that white can't resist with 8 at 9.

End result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O O O X . . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . . .
$$ | O X X X O X . X . ,
$$ | O X O O X X . . . .
$$ | O O O O O X . . . .
$$ | . X X X X X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:48 pm
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 2 . . X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 W O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Looks ok to me for White ..

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:25 pm
by illluck
@Topazg:
Yeah, 33 can't try to separate even though it looks natural :)

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:15 am
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm22
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:38 pm
by Blake
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm22
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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