Life In 19x19

emeraldemon wrote:For me this is part of the problem with "misclicks". NoSkill's argument seems to be that misclicks are somehow an unavoidable part of internet go, but I don't think that's true. If you care enough to want good games online, you can care enough to have mouse settings that don't misclick.

This sounds suspiciously like "go home, noobs". Trackpads are often terrible. Settings are often opaque.

I'm technically savvy enough to both run Linux and to reconfigure my trackpad, and my opinion is that it is a very Bad Thing (tm) that anyone should ever have to do what I had to do.

Fair enough. Personally I have a cheap USB mouse I keep with my laptop for times when a trackpad would be annoying. I've also disabled tap-click on my trackpad like Phelan, and for the same reason. But I write code for a living, so it's very possible I'm underestimating the difficulty of these things for a typical go player.

I don't mind giving undos for misclicks, either: it's typically obvious because the undo request comes instantly after the move. I just feel like if I'm misclicking, that's a problem with my computer setup that I should fix. Again, maybe that's my programmer attitude showing.

It is just my opinion that if you try to win by means other than playing better you are a low-life. In my mind if you even think "was that really a misclick" or "did he really lie" you are unconfident in your own ability to win and are never going to improve. Like I said, those who don't grand misclicks are weak and I feel like I would have no problem beating them no matter how strong they are, if they think of go as some sort of sport where you try to take advantage of a technicality to win.

In my mind someone asks me for an undo right after they move I grant it, then if I even start to think "was it really a misclick" I remind myself "So what you are trying to win from a mouse mistake or even their misread and you aren't strong enough to beat them without them making a mistake? Then you should have just resigned if you needed them to mess up"

Plain and simple. I see no difference between marking alive stones dead at the end trying to get them to click done in order to win and not undoing a misclick. Both are trying to win based off the opponent being careless or misclicking. i would also throw in playing bad moves waiting for the opponent to make a misread or mistake and die when you are 50 points behind in this boat, you people who do this are nothing and I would love to play you anyday to boost my rank.

Fair players will always win, and if you have to ask if allowing an undo for a misclick is fair then you obviously need to reconsider your priorities in go.

NoSkill wrote:It is just my opinion that if you try to win by means other than playing better you are a low-life. In my mind if you even think "was that really a misclick" or "did he really lie" you are unconfident in your own ability to win and are never going to improve. Like I said, those who don't grand misclicks are weak and I feel like I would have no problem beating them no matter how strong they are, if they think of go as some sort of sport where you try to take advantage of a technicality to win.

In my mind someone asks me for an undo right after they move I grant it, then if I even start to think "was it really a misclick" I remind myself "So what you are trying to win from a mouse mistake or even their misread and you aren't strong enough to beat them without them making a mistake? Then you should have just resigned if you needed them to mess up"

Plain and simple. I see no difference between marking alive stones dead at the end trying to get them to click done in order to win and not undoing a misclick. Both are trying to win based off the opponent being careless or misclicking. i would also throw in playing bad moves waiting for the opponent to make a misread or mistake and die when you are 50 points behind in this boat, you people who do this are nothing and I would love to play you anyday to boost my rank.

Fair players will always win, and if you have to ask if allowing an undo for a misclick is fair then you obviously need to reconsider your priorities in go.

I only partially agree with this, but that's not really my point.

I'm not talking about whether or not you should allow the other player to undo a move. I'm talking about whether you, yourself, should be making moves that need undos.

You seem to have a very strong opinion about having the right attitude when playing a game. Does that attitude not extend to how you physically place the stones? There is a seriousness to placing stones in good go games. When you play a move that has to be taken back, I think you are reducing that seriousness. Maybe it's not a lot, maybe it doesn't matter, but I personally am going to try very hard not to put a stone on the wrong intersection, even if it's "just" playing online.

NoSkill wrote:Plain and simple. I see no difference between marking alive stones dead at the end trying to get them to click done in order to win and not undoing a misclick. Both are trying to win based off the opponent being careless or misclicking. i would also throw in playing bad moves waiting for the opponent to make a misread or mistake and die when you are 50 points behind in this boat, you people who do this are nothing and I would love to play you anyday to boost my rank.

If you see no difference between a player simply responding to where someone played and someone intentionially marking live stones dead then I am pretty sure there is no point talking to you.

It is interesting how you can impart all manner of bad character traits upon those who do not want to grant undos, yet at the same time it is not allowed to suggest any ill motive from those who do. Perhaps these saint like individuals should be turning water into wine or bringing world peace. Perhaps, in their perfection, that is what they are doing when they escape in a huff.

Horibe wrote:

NoSkill wrote:Plain and simple. I see no difference between marking alive stones dead at the end trying to get them to click done in order to win and not undoing a misclick. Both are trying to win based off the opponent being careless or misclicking. i would also throw in playing bad moves waiting for the opponent to make a misread or mistake and die when you are 50 points behind in this boat, you people who do this are nothing and I would love to play you anyday to boost my rank.

If you see no difference between a player simply responding to where someone played and someone intentionially marking live stones dead then I am pretty sure there is no point talking to you.

It is interesting how you can impart all manner of bad character traits upon those who do not want to grant undos, yet at the same time it is not allowed to suggest any ill motive from those who do. Perhaps these saint like individuals should be turning water into wine or bringing world peace. Perhaps, in their perfection, that is what they are doing when they escape in a huff.

No it is just when you are playing you should not be thinking about anything but playing the best game you can, if you think about winning by time, a misclick, or some technicality you don't deserve to play go and should not even be allowed. As a player I don't see a problem asking for an undo when the misclick was purely mechanical on your side, computer error etc. Now if you misread or misthink, etc and ask for an undo you are worse than the person who doesn't allow misclicks. Gladly I have never seen even one person do that.

As I said, I would grant a misclick unless you are pretty sure the other person is lieing about the misclick, and even then I usually just allow it. No biggie. I think it is rude to now allow an undo for an especially obvious misclick, and that this breaks the agreement of playing a game. At this point I find it fine to leave the game and not finish it IE escape, or resign and tell the opponent if you want a win that badly have one. Asking for undo when it is a genuine misclick I also see no reason to doubt, if you have to ask whether you should ask for an undo when you misclick you are also thinking about the game too much as winning and not enough about getting better and having good spirit.


It would rather be like being in the fourth quarter of a football game and getting beat, but then pointing out the other player had illegal cleats or the helemt wasnt on all the way to take back the play. Do you know what most people would say to that? "Grow up you lost fair and square by skill". I have the same attitude towards those who try to point out basically that someone didn't program their laptop or mouse perfectly.

Everyone here has misclicked at some point, it would NOT happen in real life, and in that token it should be allowed to be undone.








For emerald: Yes it is respectful to as well place your stones correctly, but sometimes you have to check other windows quickly or you have a laptop or the dog bumps you etc. I think it is not good to just play really fast and make misclicks all the time, but it is more important to allow undos in my opinion. When you play go the attitude is to play your best, the opponent plays their best.. the best one wins you can review get stronger,help each other etc. If you are only trying to win regardless you will end up just playing trick plays, time suji, waiting for mistakes etc... which makes you a really weak person and will make you only weaker when you play someone strong.

Mostly I think people who ask for misclicks are people who have trouble admitting that they're not perfect. I can go through three dozen games without ever having one opponent ask for an undo. Plenty of blunders and mistakes and eye-rolling, on both sides, but no one asking for an undo. Sometimes i offer it, for big mistakes, and its almost never accepted. I don't think I, or my opponents, would ever think about winning through an undo, because it's so rare that people ask for them. Then one opponent in forty will pester me with undo, undo, undo.

I'm not saying you have bad manners, noskill - it sounds like you're just unusually clumsy, a position I sympathize with a great deal - but most people who ask for undos are bratty nutcases. Actual misclicks are rare.

jts wrote:Mostly I think people who ask for misclicks are people who have trouble admitting that they're not perfect. I can go through three dozen games without ever having one opponent ask for an undo. Plenty of blunders and mistakes and eye-rolling, on both sides, but no one asking for an undo. Sometimes i offer it, for big mistakes, and its almost never accepted. I don't think I, or my opponents, would ever think about winning through an undo, because it's so rare that people ask for them. Then one opponent in forty will pester me with undo, undo, undo.

I'm not saying you have bad manners, noskill - it sounds like you're just unusually clumsy, a position I sympathize with a great deal - but most people who ask for undos are bratty nutcases. Actual misclicks are rare.

I get asked for an undo for a misclick that is rather obvious 1/10 games, and I ask for them whenever I misclick.

Everyone here misclicks, and like I said I don't see any problem with it. I think a lot of you guys are either paranoid or play vs some really bad players, I have never had anyone try to ask for undo undo undo. They only ask for one, right after they play, and its pretty obvious a misclick.

Maybe I just have good karma and you guys are a little less lucky in terms of getting these rude people

Here is my comparsion to a misclick in real life. You are at a go club or tournament playing someone in real life, and they reach into their bowl, as they pick up the stone and go to play, a stone flys out of their bowl and bounces onto the board. What happens?

"Woops sorry *grabs stone*" then it continues from where it was. That is like an undo for a misclick. To insist they must flip the stone over and put it on the closest intersection as their move is not undoing for a misclick.

Now.... what do you think happens in reality?

Do you know what a Straw Man argument is? That's what you're doing.

We've said repeatedly that we've encountered people that ask for multiple undos, in very questionable situations. Hence why some of us don't like to always grant undos automatically.

Yet you keep representing us as if we think about any undo request (even one asked immediately like a failing to get out of atari by playing one intersection too far) as something shady.

If it never happened to you, good, but if you want to discuss this seriously, you need to get off your high horse and admit other realities. There are situations where you wouldn't grant undo, as you admitted. Why wouldn't others define that point at which they won't grant an undo differently?

Phelan wrote:Do you know what a Straw Man argument is? That's what you're doing.

We've said repeatedly that we've encountered people that ask for multiple undos, in very questionable situations. Hence why some of us don't like to always grant undos automatically.

Yet you keep representing us as if we think about any undo request (even one asked immediately like a failing to get out of atari by playing one intersection too far) as something shady.

If it never happened to you, good, but if you want to discuss this seriously, you need to get off your high horse and admit other realities. There are situations where you wouldn't grant undo, as you admitted. Why wouldn't others define that point at which they won't grant an undo differently?

Im not saying you should grant 100 undos in a row, or more than one in a row. But i am saying to not give undos at all is wrong.

To not allow undo for a misclick is wrong.

That is all im saying. Im saying I have not met this people who ask for undo all day because I think these are rare cases you are making too big of a deal out of.

@JTS & NoSkill: Both of you have taken extreme positions that seem to be more about character assassination than anything else. Why not try to be a little more accepting? The pros and cons of allowing undos are debatable, and it's fine to have a strong preference, but you have to accept that that's all it is. There's nothing wrong with preferring something different.

Splatted wrote:@JTS & NoSkill: Both of you have taken extreme positions that seem to be more about character assassination than anything else. Why not try to be a little more accepting? The pros and cons of allowing undos are debatable, and it's fine to have a strong preference, but you have to accept that that's all it is. There's nothing wrong with preferring something different.

I dont really think there is a need to take other positions. Im fine if someone does, I just refuse to play that person or if I play someone who doesn't allow undos for obvious misclicks I will just leave the game without resigning if a problem occurs, no harm no foul.

I think that the only right way to approach it is to compare it to real life, if it wouldnt happen in real life, such as not allowing someone to take back a stone that accidentally got knocked out of their bowl and landed on the board, then it shouldnt happen online. To insist upon such technicality and bureacratic nonsense is silly.

NoSkill wrote:To not allow undo for a misclick is wrong.

That is all im saying. Im saying I have not met this people who ask for undo all day because I think these are rare cases you are making too big of a deal out of.

That's not all you're saying. Some choice quotes, for you to understand why you're coming off wrong:

NoSkill wrote:After reading the thread for the first time (I had just read the title and posted because of lack of time) I have to say I feel bad for many of you. You will never improve, you will be stuck at your level forever. Be that way if you wish. Thinking like "I get sulky when they ask for an undo and I think if I should ask for an undo" is a poor loser statement, showing you lack go spirit and will generally never improve.

In my opinion that is why you see so many people who say "no misclick" etc around 5k-1k area, they get into this zone where winning is more important than learning and playing your best game, and that is why they will never improve.

Like I said, if you get mad when you have to let the opponent undo because their computer messed up, you must be too focused on the win and therefore not be thinking about getting better enough, have fun staying at the same level.

NoSkill wrote:You aren't thinking correctly.

NoSkill wrote:It is just my opinion that if you try to win by means other than playing better you are a low-life. In my mind if you even think "was that really a misclick" or "did he really lie" you are unconfident in your own ability to win and are never going to improve. Like I said, those who don't grand misclicks are weak and I feel like I would have no problem beating them no matter how strong they are, if they think of go as some sort of sport where you try to take advantage of a technicality to win.

you people who do this are nothing and I would love to play you anyday to boost my rank.

Fair players will always win, and if you have to ask if allowing an undo for a misclick is fair then you obviously need to reconsider your priorities in go.

NoSkill wrote:you don't deserve to play go and should not even be allowed.

It would rather be like being in the fourth quarter of a football game and getting beat, but then pointing out the other player had illegal cleats or the helemt wasnt on all the way to take back the play. Do you know what most people would say to that? "Grow up you lost fair and square by skill". I have the same attitude towards those who try to point out basically that someone didn't program their laptop or mouse perfectly.

NoSkill wrote:If you are only trying to win regardless you will end up just playing trick plays, time suji, waiting for mistakes etc... which makes you a really weak person and will make you only weaker when you play someone strong.

I never judged you or your life experience. However, you are judging everyone that apparently disagrees with you. I say aparently because, as I've shown, you are misrepresenting people's positions.

NoSkill wrote:I think that the only right way to approach it is to compare it to real life, if it wouldnt happen in real life, such as not allowing someone to take back a stone that accidentally got knocked out of their bowl and landed on the board, then it shouldnt happen online. To insist upon such technicality and bureacratic nonsense is silly.

Would you allow someone in a real life tournament to place a stone, let it go, and then pick it up and play it again?
Or take the stone, place it without releasing, and move it about to see where it looks better?

That's a possible analogy to real life you're not considering.