Life In 19x19

Beat myself with a 9 stone handicap.

tapir wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:Good question. My best guess would be around three stones. (Zen is 6D on KGS which is roughly 5D EGF and he beats pros on 4H).

People underestimate the strength of professional players:

http://www.361points.com/blog/2010/03/2 ... l-players/

Winning once isn't "beats pros on xy". The amateur players in the blogpost by Sorin are among European strongest with handicaps ranging from 2 (for 7 dan) to 4 (for 5 dan) all but one lose their games.

I think Zen is 2:1 on 19*19, but I could be mistaken. Then again - replying to your link - winning once isn't "beats amateuers on xy", is it? =P
Anyway, that's why I said "best guess" and "around three stones". We can make it four if you want. But beating a pro with 3 or 4 handicap stones isn't my goal in the first place, it's becoming 6D KGS, 5D EGF.

My goal is being able to consistently and correctly know which is the next "normal" move.

I feel that will be the moment when I'll start really enjoying the "better than normal" moves.

(Also, winning a tygem 9d with 9H.)

I have a sense of the amount of stuff I'd like to know (corner shapes, Joseki, reading strength, tesuji, etc) but I don't have a good way of articulating what strength I think that might be. I guess I'd like to learn that stuff, and get to just short of whatever strength it stops being interesting for me.

tapir wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:Good question. My best guess would be around three stones. (Zen is 6D on KGS which is roughly 5D EGF and he beats pros on 4H).

People underestimate the strength of professional players:

http://www.361points.com/blog/2010/03/2 ... l-players/

Winning once isn't "beats pros on xy". The amateur players in the blogpost by Sorin are among European strongest with handicaps ranging from 2 (for 7 dan) to 4 (for 5 dan) all but one lose their games.

My goals in the game don't have a lot to do explicitly with becoming a stronger player. I primarily want to have more understanding of the game. I play mostly for social interaction with friends now. Some time ago there was a quote on SL from Kikuchi Yasuro, a famous Japanese amateur, to the effect that paying attention to moves that surprise you is a good way to grow as a player. That's what I enjoy, being surprised by a move and then figuring out what is going on.

I agree with Tapir's statement about pros' strength being underestimated by amateurs. When pros play teaching games giving handicaps they usually aren't playing the best they can and they even deliberately make mistakes to "test" the other player. Also, playing in an official setting or tournament is a different thing than informal games at a Congress or workshop.

Alguien wrote:My goal is being able to consistently and correctly know which is the next "normal" move.

Do you imagine that pros know this? I have my doubts. Better than normal to me is a fantasy, and even "avoiding abnormal" is unlikely to ever be reached.

quantumf wrote:

Alguien wrote:My goal is being able to consistently and correctly know which is the next "normal" move.

Do you imagine that pros know this? I have my doubts. Better than normal to me is a fantasy, and even "avoiding abnormal" is unlikely to ever be reached.

Maybe we're not talking about the same "normal".

Having read hundreds of reviews by 5d+ (up to pro reviews), I've found very often the expression "the following moves are natural/normal" and then playing several consecutive moves with no explanation.

My objective is not to understand what a pro plays when both him and his opponent know the "natural" sequence; it's to know that sequence.

The "natural"/"normal" I'm speaking about is what I think separates 1d from 5d.

Alguien wrote:Having read hundreds of reviews [...] playing several consecutive moves with no explanation.

Have you asked your reviewer(s) for explanation of the normal moves and why they are normal?

Alguien wrote:Maybe we're not talking about the same "normal".

Having read hundreds of reviews by 5d+ (up to pro reviews), I've found very often the expression "the following moves are natural/normal" and then playing several consecutive moves with no explanation.

My objective is not to understand what a pro plays when both him and his opponent know the "natural" sequence; it's to know that sequence.

The "natural"/"normal" I'm speaking about is what I think separates 1d from 5d.

As Robert has pointed out, which I agree with, the idea of "normal" is basically a fantasy. "Normal" to me means "Hand of God". Instead, I think you're referring to joseki sequences, in all the phases of the game.

My goal in go is to play a move like the famous m127 of the ear-reddening game against a pro and win. Maybe it's an unrealistic goal, but I'm a dreamer:)

Currently? To greatly reduce the # of times I find I've misread a whole section of the board and straightforward plays against me change the whole game.

In other words, less "D'oh!" moments.

Bruce "Competence before Creativity" Young

quantumf wrote:As Robert has pointed out, which I agree with, the idea of "normal" is basically a fantasy.

Have I?! ;)

RobertJasiek wrote:

quantumf wrote:As Robert has pointed out, which I agree with, the idea of "normal" is basically a fantasy.

Have I?!

Sorry, no I changed the 2nd part of my sentence without changing the 1st. The question you asked was something along the lines of what makes a normal move and how do you determine it is normal? As I reflected on this I believed you were making a deeper point that if such were possible Go would probably be solved - but that is my opinion/thought, and I'm sorry for clumsily attributing it to you.

Don't have one anymore :'(

To come onto the forum and not read the title of a thread as "What is your goat in Go?".

Best wishes.