Life In 19x19

With holiday travels and other stresses, my brain is not good (obvious from my two in-person games yesterday .)
Also, from skimming Ishida and Takao, I found out I know practically nothing about the LR variations.
So more studying of the books is not very helpful now.

For beginners. I don't understand B's choice of -- maybe I'll find out his reasons after the game --
because if we just compare the left, the top, and the right, the right side is the "shortest".
Of course, this is not to say that gap size is the only factor, but it is one consideration.
This also does not mean that is not playable; especially at these levels, it's most likely no problem at all.

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[go]$$Wm12
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ {AR C14 C15}
$$ {LN C14 C5}
$$ {AR C5 C4}
$$ {AR F17 E17}
$$ {LN F17 O17}
$$ {AR O17 P17}
$$ {AR R14 R15}
$$ {LN R14 R9}
$$ {AR R9 R8}[/go]

I'm not sure what's the best pincer. Not sure about the 2-space low pincer:

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[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Sweet! I keep correctly anticipating EdLee's moves. If this continues, I will be able to obtain a favorable or at least satisfactory outcome out of the opening. That said, I do believe that playing the close-low pincer was White's best option in the position. Otherwise, Black would get what he wants a bit too easily.

As mentioned previously, I intend to play a knight's jump next. However, I will first recheck more thoroughly all the likely variations which could follow now that the pincer was actually played.

Needless to say, my initial plan to play safely, get into an endgame, make slightly more efficient moves ... and win by 1.5 points ... has gone out the window--at least for the moment. I expect the situation to complicate and to intensify noticeably during the next 20 moves or more.

The Intrepid wrote:Sweet! I keep correctly anticipating EdLee's moves. If this continues, I will be able to obtain a favorable or at least satisfactory outcome out of the opening.

Doesn't that assume that your judgement of the results from the sequences are definitely correct?

I remember one of Bill Spight's comments on a review a couple of year ago about giving his opponent whatever they want, and winning anyway.

topazg wrote:@TheIntrepid:
Doesn't that assume that your judgement of the results from the sequences are definitely correct?

No doubt about it ... that's why I said "favorable or at least satisfactory" (emphasis added). I'm quite aware my judgment could be wrong. However, the rules for this game permit us to use pro-game databases, and it is early enough in the game where, to a large extent, I can rely on professionals' judgment rather than on my own. Anyhow, let's see what happens.

I thought to add that, according to pugilists and MMA fighters, it is "the punches you don't see coming that knock you out." This piece of wisdom applies to Go, as well, obviously. Them boxers know what's up, know what I'm saying?

I'm a bit preoccupied right now, so I'll have to post comments, expectiations, and so on tomorrow or the day after. For the moment, I'll just say that I've never played or read about this move before. As such, I am not entirely sure if I'll get the outcome that I would like, but I am optimistic regarding what might happen.

First feeling is the keima is a bit unusual, so it's interested. Will study.

Database search showed that = is an occasional move (for the local UR corner, 31 out of 50,744 games.)
The most popular W replies were a tie between (a) and (b), each with only 9 games (out of 50,744!).
And of course, their boards were completely different from here.
I have no idea what they were doing. Go is too deep. I just play my own game.

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[go]$$Wm14
$$--------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I know that I still have not posted comments regarding my previous move. I'll get to it soon. I'll just note that EdLee had a wide choice of moves available to him. However, interestingly enough, when professionals defended the corner, they overwhelmingly preferred the following to EdLee's move:

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[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . a . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |[/go]

I don't quite yet understand why, but it probably has to do with corner aji. I believe my current choice mainly consists of "b" and "c," with my previous analysis suggesting that I should play "b."

Also, I should add that, upon a more detailed analysis, the move I chose might be sub-optimal, given that White has influence on the bottom right. Thus, in retrospect, perhaps one of the moves the pros preferred in such positions, such as "d" or "e," would have been objectively stronger. That said, I think everything is still under control.

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[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . e . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, full commentary on the last move will be posted in a few days.

Comments to follow shortly.

Interesting, not expected. Locally, I thought the press could stay ahead of W:

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[go]$$B
$$--------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

In the real game, W could stay ahead (for now):

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[go]$$W
$$--------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I had a wide array of moves to choose from. The general idea is to reduce White's potential on the right side of the board and, at the same time, gain points where they are easier to get--the top or the top-right corner. To this effect, professionals preferred "a" or "b," usually playing "a" and then "b" in conjunction. Lee Chang-ho played "a" then "c."

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[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . c b . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O e . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

It was also possible to tenuki, leaving the Black stone at the top-right alone for the time being. The best places to tenuki would be "d"--which expands the bottom moyo and fights for influence in the center--and "e" which would take a large corner and threaten to reduce White's moyo on the right from underneath the White stones. In addition to all the above options, Lee Sedol played "f" in one game, taking the corner right away. The exact situation on the board was this:

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[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O B B . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Black already has the bottom-right corner which could be an important factor why Lee Sedol might have thought it was all right to take the top-right corner in exchange for additional White influence toward the right side.

As to the move in the game, the knight's jump is a relatively new move. Out of the 40 games in the database I could find, 30 of them happened in the last 10 years. Let's compare and contrast this move with similar moves:

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[go]$$Bc (A) The move in the present game.
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]

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[go]$$Bc (B) A move popular about 80 years ago, no longer considered joseki.
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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[go]$$Bc (C) A common joseki, with "a" or "b" next for White
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ , . . . b . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]

The problem with (B) is that the marked stone is on the 3rd line, leaving Black insufficient room to do anything substantial against the corner. As a result, either Black gets insufficient territory in the corner to offset White's gains (after White "a") or else Black's influence turns out to be insufficient to offset White's territory in the corner and on the top (after White "b"):

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[go]$$Bc (B)
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ , . . . b . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . a X . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Therefore, (A) is better than (B) because White's corner stone is at 4-4 instead of 3-4.

As for the (A) vs. (C), the two moves are similar in many ways. In both cases, Black separates White's two stones, seeking to apply pressure against one or the other. As for the differences:

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[go]$$Bc (C)
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . a W . . |
$$ . . . . . . B . . . |[/go]

Black's first two stones cannot be easily disconnected. These two stones apply greater pressure against the corner than toward . is not connected very well to the original two stones, however, enabling White to play "a" in various situations.

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[go]$$Bc (A)
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

By contrast, here all the three Black stones work well together and apply more pressure toward . However, the original two stones are apply less force against the corner and aren't as well connected with one another.

I cannot really offer too much insight beyond this, however. I never played (A) before. Similarly, my knowledge about (C) is limited, given that I either invade the corner or approach the corner from the other side when faced with a close-low pincer. That said, as I was familiarizing myself with (A) and (C), I came to realize that these josekis are best when Black has a stone in the bottom-right corner (and absent White stones there). For example, Black cannot complain about the following result (So Yokoku vs. O Meien (b), 2004):

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[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . X 7 . . |
$$ . . . . , 9 . . |
$$ . . . . 8 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . 2 . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . 6 . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]