Feeling Rushed

[Polama]

My own interpretation of what's essential to a 'flowing like water' style is the ability to play 'around' an opponents strategy rather than resist them. With a territorial style, you can tell early where that player's points will come from. With a fighting style, you can see which groups the player is weakening to profit from with a chase or kill. But the idea behind 'flowing like water' is to create positions where you'll profit from diverse continuations. This could be a very miai focused way of playing, so your key points shift across the board when an opponent attacks. It could be a tenuki focused way of playing, giving your opponent what he thought he wanted and profiting more. It could even be a life&death focused way of playing, being able to give your opponent accommodatingly large potential territory and then living in it.

Some middle games seem to have a clear direction to them: You can count up a meaningful fraction of the final score and identify a few specific goals the players need to accomplish to win. We can imagine different sequences leading to different endings that look somewhat alike. With a 'flowing' style, we'd expect the different imagined sequences to diverge into totally different end positions. Maybe that's territory, maybe it's sacrificed. Maybe that group is attacked, maybe it's left alone.

[Magicwand]

did i mention about the rhythm of the play?
sometime the sequence of play is ordered in a way that it is like a flow of the water.
when you play in that perfect harmonious sequence...it will give appearance like a flowing water.
you are not forcing the issue or in a situation where you do not know where to play.
it is like a guided path of sequence so smooth and natural it will give you comfort playing that move.

is water metaphor symbolic? no it is real.
If i have time i would give you example of such sequence...but i will leave them to someone else

[RobertJasiek]

My own interpretation [...] a 'flowing like water' style

Very good theory about what it is or could be or else a very nice suggestion and description of a style (where I expected a strategic concept), thank you!

[cyclops]

did i mention about the rhythm of the play?
sometime the sequence of play is ordered in a way that it is like a flow of the water.
when you play in that perfect harmonious sequence...it will give appearance like a flowing water.
you are not forcing the issue or in a situation where you do not know where to play.
it is like a guided path of sequence so smooth and natural it will give you comfort playing that move.

is water metaphor symbolic? no it is real.
If i have time i would give you example of such sequence...but i will leave them to someone else

If you let flow the capitals like water there will be more harmony and rhythm in your texts

[daal]

Here's a short sequence from Attack and Defense, p. 176, in which black replies to a white invasion. To me it evokes the flow of water. I'm not quite sure though how such a concept relates to feeling rushed.

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2376

[RobertJasiek]

The sequence involves inductions. I do not see that water would add any drop of information. In particular, the sequence alone does not explain why White does not sacrifice his stone. Why would running out be any more water-flowing than sacrificing and exchanging or vice versa?

Do you speak of flow in a strategic concept sense, such as here?
http://senseis.xmp.net/?FlowOfTheStones

[cyclops]

To me it evokes the flow of water.

To me it evokes black and white drops dripping down. It fits with the sound of snow melting outdoors from the roof, right now.

[shapenaji]

The sequence involves inductions. I do not see that water would add any drop of information. In particular, the sequence alone does not explain why White does not sacrifice his stone. Why would running out be any more water-flowing than sacrificing and exchanging or vice versa?

Do you speak of flow in a strategic concept sense, such as here?
http://senseis.xmp.net/?FlowOfTheStones

This may not be the meta phor you

[RobertJasiek]

This may not be the meta phor you

Would you say that it is nothing more than just a metaphor at all?

(If I tried to apply 'flow like water' in a direct sense, then I would understand "Occupy the middle point of the largest empty space immediately!". Because this is the sink where water would want to flow to. Ok, if the flow aspect is stressed, then I would also understand: "Try to occupy the middle point of the largest empty space by moving the current fights / actions in that direction." Both interpretations would be bad. Therefore, I dislike such a metaphorical approach.)

[Bonobo]

Robert:

Methinks the metaphor “flow of water” is one meta level higher than you seem to think: for me it’s less about the physical “flow” of the stones on the board (your sink picture) but rather about the mindset of the player that shows in the flow of the stones on the board, about they way they handle a situation, not the handling of the situation itself. Something like direct vs. indirect reaction; I believe, e.g., what you write in one of your books, “do not obey your opponent”, is something could relate to this.

But I also may be way off with this


Greetings, Tom

[RobertJasiek]

Bonobo, I like also your conjecture about what 'flow of the stones' might mean. I hope that professionals will express what they mean, when using this phrase, at least as clearly as Polama and you.

[wineandgolover]

I suspect "flow like water" is Taoist in origin, referring to "the watercourse way."

This "way" is wonderfully described in the Book of Changes, where from we have excerpted a short commentary of Richard Wilhelm on the hexagram no. 19 - Lin / Approach:*

The water endlessly flows and fills, up to a certain limit, the corners it is flowing through; the water is not "afraid" of any dangerous place, of any "falling" and there is nothing making it lose its essence. Under all circumstances, it remains equal to its nature.

Basically, I think of it as meaning go with the flow, you don't need to be unnatural, or resist excessively (think tiring yourself out by swimming upstream) to succeed at go. For example, if your opponent wants a moyo, fine. Take the generous cash gift he gives you, then gently reducing from outside should be enough. A dangerous invasion after taking the cash might be seen as not flowing - and could yield in a quick loss if it dies.

* rather than writing this myself, I took it from http://www.taoisminfo.com/watercourseway.html

[DeFlow]

How this thread involved in a discussion about the 'flow' of go fascinates me.

Right now, I am thinking a lot about flexibility in my moves. The sequence of moves flowing like water is the process of making the stones that your opponet placed on the board mis-placed. It's like the sequence from Attack and Defense that Daal posted progresses. A black stone invades what appears to be a three-space extension. After a few forcing exchanges, it looks more like the black stone is pincered against a wall.

To play with a certain flow, you have to posess the ability to keep aji in a position and settle it only when it makes your opponents earlier moves seem strange.

[xed_over]

How this thread involved in a discussion about the 'flow' of go fascinates me.

Discussion threads can themselves, "flow like water" until some angry beaver comes along and dams it up and splits it into multiple streams.