Page 3 of 14
Re:
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:58 am
by TIM82
$$Bm27
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm27
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:22 pm
by EdLee
Re: #193 TIM82 vs EdLee
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:36 pm
by Loons
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:23 pm
by EdLee
$$Bm29
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm29
For beginners. Before this game, I only had a little experience with the following joseki
(with the 1-space pincer
, different from the real game):
$$B Variation 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B Variation 1$$Bm11 Variation 1 (cont'd)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm11 Variation 1 (cont'd)In our game,
is different from the above
, and the pincer
is farther away;
in addition, there is the rest of the board to consider (like
):
$$Wm28
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm28
Ishida, Takao, and the database are all interesting and fun,
but actually they don't help so much. For example, I was looking at B(a) or B(b) for
:
$$Wm28
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm28I noticed two things:
(1) locally, pro move seemed to be
(b) kosumi;
(2) the (additional) broken shape for B after
-
:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: Re:
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:42 pm
by TIM82
$$Bm29
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm29
I feel this is not right. As black I think would have played 27 against the two stones above, attacking them and stabilizing my stone at teh same time.
Giving 29 (and upcoming 31) to black is regrettable, but I dont want an attack on my two stones on the side right now, would be free points to black.
I think I will next split right side at a - If black approaches from bottom, I get three space extension upwards, if from up, there is no really outstanding approach move which would enclose the corner too, and black's bottom enclosure is quite tight after that. As a longer term plan, playing some moves against the bottom right enclosure and then somewhere around B would extend my biggest area, but I'm not happy about aji around C...
Also, I'm more and more worried about my low positions. Unfamiliar with situatins like this.
$$Bm29
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm29
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:33 pm
by EdLee
Locally,
is a pro reply. Otherwise,
seems unpleasant:
$$W
tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X O 2 . . . , . .
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:55 am
by EdLee
$$Bm31
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm31
Rejected:
pulling back seems sente:
$$B
tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 5 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Rejected:
seems pretty annoying for B:
$$B
tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B Does not work for B:
$$B
tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 3 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B W gets
in sente:
$$B
tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: Re:
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:59 am
by TIM82
$$Bm31
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm31
So, lets see. Giving 2 to black would be too bad. It's the next move that's more interesting. Haven't read it yet thoroughly at all, but seems I can't resist black A easily with B,C,D, nor hane with B - so can I play a move extending the area and protecting against that? Perhaps point E that I mentioned earlier? Is left side feasible after black E,F,G?
$$Bm31
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm31
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:43 am
by EdLee
$$Bm33
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm33
I had really wanted to tenuki on
and play here, but didn't -- see hidden variations for
, Post #37.
I wasn't sure if
was sente, so I'm glad W replied.
Locally, after the exchange of
kosumi and
, one pro follow-up was the
-
exchange --
however, our game is different from their situations (see hidden variations for
, Post #37).
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:08 am
by EdLee
For beginners. One idea behind
is W cannot make a big wedge on the 3rd line with a miai of 2-space extensions.
(All the following boards are rotated for space.)
For example,
has miai of (a) and (b) -- both 2-space extensions from
:
$$B
tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . a . . 2 . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B Another example:
also has miai of (c) and (d):
$$B Variation.
tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . c . . 2 . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B Variation. However, after
, such a point on the 3rd line no longer exists for W:
$$Bm33
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm33
Re: Re:
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:08 am
by TIM82
$$Bm33
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm33
Aiming at A and B below. I expect Ed to defend against A - I'll take B, which I expect to either enclose black in corner or make him run with only one eye, unless my reading is crap. Both should help somewhat against the aji around C, and also generate some points for me. Finally, it's hopefully not trivial for Ed to defend against A without leaving me space for action on right, or the option to flatten him there. I'm playing current move before B to make it more unlikely that black just chooses to live enclosed in bottom left corner and reduces me from outside.
That's my fantasy, let's see how reality turns out.
$$Bm33
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm33
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:05 pm
by EdLee
My first feeling about
is it looks fancy, but a bit thin?
Re: Re:
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:52 am
by TIM82
To observers: As this is my first Malkovich, any feedback on quality of comments (longer, shorter, different content), or any particular questions? I'm having much fun myself, and think I'm perhaps also learning things, but would be great if this provided something for others too.
Some further thoughts while waiting Ed. Since then I have been wondering whether A,B or something else is the continuation if Ed doesn't defend the side - that actually seems better plan than defending perhaps. Did I overestimate the threat? If it comes to that, will have to study what kind weaknesses I can find from the enclosure in each case.
If Ed defends, I'll take 1 first, then probably something like 2,3. Taking 3 directly would enable Ed to fly over my bottom area too low for comfort.
$$Wm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm1Below, or similar is not so good.
$$Wm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm1How much an overplay this is??
$$Wm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm1Not so clear how B would answer 1, nor what kind of possibilities I have in the corner. Feels slack, not putting pressure on black?
$$Wm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm1
Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:17 pm
by EdLee
$$Bm35
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm35
I think (but I'm not 100% sure) this is the first time I play this shape,
which makes sense, since I also think it's the first time I saw
... interesting.
Re: #193 TIM82 vs EdLee
Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:49 pm
by The Intrepid
, different from the real game):
is different from the above 
, and the pincer 
is farther away;
):
:
(b) kosumi;
- 
:
is a pro reply. Otherwise, 
seems unpleasant:
tenuki
tenuki
in sente:
and play here, but didn't -- see hidden variations for 
kosumi and 
is W cannot make a big wedge on the 3rd line with a miai of 2-space extensions.
is it looks fancy, but a bit thin? 