Life In 19x19

Bonobo wrote:

speedchase wrote:

Mike Novack wrote:I think it makes sense for a strong player giving a beginning player a game at high handicap to warn "atari". Possibly also for a couple of beginners playing, say 20k or worse.

I'm not such a huge fan of this, it's probably the main thing that makes it difficult for beginners to learn to spot atari on their own.

I also don't like saying “Atari!” lest ppl believe this is a duty like saying “Check!” in Chess.

[..]

Just to make clear who said what

Sorry. That was an error in editing the nested quote. I was of course intending the line about saying "check" a duty in chess. Trying to say that not so much a duty as a necessity of the (other) rules of the game.

I perhaps should have made clearer for the benefit of those who were not at least fairly good chess players that the inability to pass determines the outcome (who wins) in many end game situations (chess end games). Not just "stalemate".

daal wrote:One way of learning to see the atari is from the beginning to develop the good habit of asking yourself every move: "What was the purpose of my opponent's last move?" This makes it pretty hard to miss an atari, and will also give you a better idea of what's going on in general on the board.

Okay, but even if one can't discern a strategic or tactical "meaning" behind an opponent's move, surely it takes nothing more than simple observation to determine if said move has put any stones in atari.

The problem seems to be what happens as stones in atari are left in atari, and as the game progresses, players forget about them and do nothing to refresh their memory. Or when they do try to refresh their cache (understanding of the board state), they take over-ambitious shortcuts and miss things. I can't help but think that many of these players just need to slow down and be more careful/attentive.

Seeing atari is the key to something like 50% of tsumego (and that percentage gets higher as the tsumego gets more difficult). "Shortage of liberties", which is a sort of fancy theme in tesuji/tsumego, happens when you cannot make the move you need because it puts your stones in atari.

Doing lots of tsumego helps cure this blindness. Even a lot of 30 kyu tsumego is about seeing obvious ataris 0 or 1 moves ahead. I wish I knew about this when I first started playing.

EDIT: Okay, to be honest, there is no complete cure.

I got the impression that the problem being described by the OP was failing to see stones currently in atari, not stones that could be in atari in the future. If I misunderstood him on this point, then that might explain why I am so puzzled by the phenomenon.

zslane wrote: If I misunderstood him on this point, then that might explain why I am so puzzled by the phenomenon.

maybe you're so puzzled because you don't remember what it was like to be a beginner

zslane wrote:I got the impression that the problem being described by the OP was failing to see stones currently in atari, not stones that could be in atari in the future. If I misunderstood him on this point, then that might explain why I am so puzzled by the phenomenon.

The general phenomenon is not noticing (or having trouble seeing, or forgetting, or however you want to put it) that a certain string has N liberties in M moves... (1, 1) is just a special case of the general pattern, and is not necessarily more puzzling than (2, 1) or (1, 2).

xed_over wrote:

zslane wrote: If I misunderstood him on this point, then that might explain why I am so puzzled by the phenomenon.

maybe you're so puzzled because you don't remember what it was like to be a beginner

I understand why beginners fail to see stones in immediate atari. They aren't accustomed to evaluating the entire board. How does this happen to anyone SDK or higher, except under extreme time pressure?

zslane wrote:

xed_over wrote:

zslane wrote: If I misunderstood him on this point, then that might explain why I am so puzzled by the phenomenon.

maybe you're so puzzled because you don't remember what it was like to be a beginner

I understand why beginners fail to see stones in immediate atari. They aren't accustomed to evaluating the entire board. How does this happen to anyone SDK or higher, except under extreme time pressure?

It happens to me on occasion still, as a mid SDK, usually because I have become overly focused on a specific goal and lose my objectivity for a moment. When my opponent doesn't respond as expected, I move to capitalise without taking the time to evaluate their move. It doesn't happen often, and usually is when I am tired, but I can't deny that it does.

I remember a recent game where I traded a 50 point centre away in exchange for a 10-15 point move on the edge in the endgame. At that point I couldn't resign for a while because I was too busy laughing at myself.

Yeah, stronger players never fail to spot ataris ...

viewtopic.php?p=96153#p96153

zslane wrote:

xed_over wrote:

zslane wrote: If I misunderstood him on this point, then that might explain why I am so puzzled by the phenomenon.

maybe you're so puzzled because you don't remember what it was like to be a beginner

I understand why beginners fail to see stones in immediate atari. They aren't accustomed to evaluating the entire board. How does this happen to anyone SDK or higher, except under extreme time pressure?

I think there's a difference in what people are saying and what you are saying. I'm not sure people miss seeing stones in atari often, when their opponent plays the move that puts the group in atari.
Most of the time, it's a matter of a self-atari. In topazg's example, he was probably considering the group connected, and was just thinking on the endgame, not on liberties.

A step above that is missing snapbacks, I think. It happens to me way more than I'd like to admit.

Watch this and you'll feel better for certain!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt1FvPxmmfE

OtakuViking wrote:Watch this and you'll feel better for certain!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt1FvPxmmfE

See comment #12

One 1k I played resigned after I killed his invasion despite being 20ish ahead (albeit with invasion potential in his moyo) - that was quite amusing... People will do silly things at all levels - I've witnessed self-atari twice in real life watching dan-level games - one was the game topazg linked below, felt kind of sick seeing him do that! The other game was when the player was doing 20 stones in 5 minutes byo yomi - still a 1d though, so not something you'd expect to see every day.

I self-atarid a big group against Andrew Kay in the British Challengers' Tournament last year, but I was a long way behind anyway so it was more amusing than upsetting, though not as amusing as the dango I made earlier in the game that lived at 1-1.



EDIT: Oh, that wasn't self atari, but almost as bad.