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Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:14 pm
by xed_over
Today's game
Lee Sedol vs Gangsheng Shi
3.5 reverse komi
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[-3.50]TM[1200]OT[3x30 byo-yomi]
GN[10 game kadoban]PW[Lee Sedol]PB[Gansheng Shi]WR[9p]BR[1p]DT[2013-03-02]RO[5]PC[go9dan.com]RE[W+3.50]
;B[pc];W[pp];B[cd];W[dp];B[qe];W[ed];B[ec];W[fc];B[dc];W[pb];B[ob];W[oc];B[od];W[nc];B[nb];W[mc]
;B[mb];W[lc];B[jc];W[kc];B[qc];W[jd];B[fd];W[gc];B[fe];W[cn];B[jq];W[lq];B[gq];W[eq];B[go];W[qp]
;B[qj];W[ci];B[cg];W[ql];B[dl];W[ei];B[dn];W[cm];B[dm];W[cl];B[ck];W[bk];B[bj];W[hp];B[bl];W[dk]
;B[cj];W[do];B[dj];W[gp];B[ek];W[hq];B[jo];W[hd];B[lo];W[nq];B[ho];W[eg];B[gg];W[gi];B[ih];W[ii]
;B[ji];W[ff];B[gf];W[ge];B[ee];W[hh];B[ij];W[ig];B[hi];W[gh];B[jg];W[jf];B[if];W[hg];B[je];W[kf]
;B[id];W[ic];B[kd];W[jb];B[ib];W[jd];B[op];W[oq];B[jc];W[hc];B[kb];W[jd];B[fp];W[fq];B[jc];W[ja]
;B[kg];W[lf];B[lb];W[jd];B[co];W[bo];B[jc];W[hf];B[ld];W[jd];B[cp];W[cq];B[jc];W[ie];B[jd];W[ol]
;B[rl];W[rm];B[ml];W[rk];B[gj];W[bm];B[ia];W[df];B[bf];W[lm];B[ll];W[kp];B[ip];W[km];B[hr];W[gr]
;B[iq];W[gq];B[ko];W[mm];B[rj];W[me];B[nf];W[ne];B[qk];W[sl];B[nl];W[nm];B[ok];W[of];B[pl];W[om]
;B[qm];W[pm];B[rl];W[hb];B[ka];W[ql];B[mf];W[pk];B[og];W[oj];B[le];W[pg];B[pf];W[oh];B[oe];W[qg]
;B[ef];W[fg];B[rg];W[rh];B[rf];W[qh];B[im];W[kl];B[lj];W[fj];B[fk];W[hk];B[hj];W[il];B[jm];W[jl]
;B[hl];W[de];B[dd];W[dg];B[nk];W[nj];B[mj];W[nh];B[sh];W[si];B[sg];W[ri];B[di];W[al];B[no];W[eb]
;B[db];W[fa];B[da];W[cf];B[bg];W[eo];B[fn];W[ik];B[gk];W[dh];B[ch];W[kr];B[mp];W[oo];B[kq];W[lr]
;B[kk];W[lh];B[mi];W[lg];B[ki];W[lp];B[ni];W[oi];B[np];W[nn];B[fo];W[ir];B[jr];W[hs];B[js];W[mq]
;B[mo];W[ce];B[be];W[kh];B[jh];W[en];B[em];W[ep];B[kn];W[jk];B[ej];W[fi];B[qf];W[jj];B[kj];W[ks]
;B[is];W[hr];B[mh];W[mg];B[ha];W[aj];B[ai];W[ak];B[ga];W[ng];B[of];W[gd];B[ed];W[jp];B[io];W[fb]
;B[];W[];B[]TW[he][gf][if][gg][eh][fh][ph][pi][qi][pj][qj][rj][sj][qk][sk][bl][pl][rl][am][qm][sm][an][bn][on][pn][qn][rn][sn][ao][co][po][qo][ro][so][ap][bp][cp][rp][sp][aq][bq][dq][pq][qq][rq][sq][ar][br][cr][dr][er][fr][mr][nr][or][pr][qr][rr][sr][as][bs][cs][ds][es][fs][gs][ls][ms][ns][os][ps][qs][rs][ss]TB[aa][ba][ca][ja][la][ma][na][oa][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][jb][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][cc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc][rc][sc][ad][bd][md][nd][pd][qd][rd][sd][ae][me][ne][pe][re][se][af][sf][ag][ah][bh][bi][ci][ii][dk][lk][mk][el][fl][gl][fm][gm][hm][gn][hn][in][jn])
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:18 am
by wineandgolover
Interesting game. I guess Gangsheng Shi deserves kudos for keeping it close, though Lee Sedol just felt soooo in control. Despite reverse komi, he didn't need to gamble.
Thoughts:
1. Giving white that double wing in the lower right seemed too easy, and it got very big.
2. It is very hard to make central territory against world class players. Lee Sedol kept slapping down every attempt, without taking risks.
3. Is anybody strong commenting these games?
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:21 pm
by xed_over
Lee Sedol's comments on this most recent game:
Lee Sedol wrote:b31 needed to be at k5. w46 was an unintended move played due to a misclick. B played well and b was ahead. If b93 was played at w108, then it would have been very difficult for w to respond. b123, instead of b115 looks appropriate. b145 was an unnecessary attempt to fight ko. Instead of b145, if b played 153, then b cannot lose the game. The losing move is b151. if black played B4 ko threat, it would have been impossible for w to win the ko, or the game.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:49 pm
by harpreet
xed_over wrote:Lee Sedol's comments on this most recent game:
Lee Sedol wrote:b31 needed to be at k5. w46 was an unintended move played due to a misclick. B played well and b was ahead. If b93 was played at w108, then it would have been very difficult for w to respond. b123, instead of b115 looks appropriate. b145 was an unnecessary attempt to fight ko. Instead of b145, if b played 153, then b cannot lose the game. The losing move is b151. if black played B4 ko threat, it would have been impossible for w to win the ko, or the game.
If he can win while making a misclick the handicap will almost certainly need to increase.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:01 pm
by Uberdude
Haha, I was puzzled by h4, trying to work out how probing between black's two answers (g4 or h3) affected the continuation on the left, but now I learn it was a
misclick!
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:39 am
by Javaness2
Misclick nightmare! I guess on go9dan.com you cannot have an undo - so it's like the IGS league games. People end up restarting those after 180 moves so they can finish them. Tragedy!
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:45 am
by HermanHiddema
Javaness2 wrote:Misclick nightmare! I guess on go9dan.com you cannot have an undo - so it's like the IGS league games. People end up restarting those after 180 moves so they can finish them. Tragedy!
Actually, you can undo on IGS, but only if you know the right console commands
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:11 pm
by quantumf
harpreet wrote:If he can win while making a misclick the handicap will almost certainly need to increase.
Sure. But they are playing arguably the strongest player in the world. No shame in needing a few stones head start to beat him.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:47 pm
by Mef
HermanHiddema wrote:Javaness2 wrote:Misclick nightmare! I guess on go9dan.com you cannot have an undo - so it's like the IGS league games. People end up restarting those after 180 moves so they can finish them. Tragedy!
Actually, you can undo on IGS, but only if you know the right console commands
I think IGS disallows undo for league games, much like KGS disallows undo in tournament games.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Andy Liu
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:00 pm
by gowan
Bill Spight wrote:badukJr wrote:If Sedol pushes to like 4 handi on these guys, doesn't that expose AGA pro as a sham? Why risk it so early?
No, it would not expose an AGA pro as a sham. 100 years ago it was normal for a 9 dan to give a shodan pro three stones. In a match it would not be impossible for the 9 dan to force a handicap of 4 stones.
These days a normal handicap for a 9 dan to give a shodan pro is 2 stones. But there are 9 dans and 9 dans. Lee Sedol is one of the top few players in the world. Who knows how many stones he could give shodan pros?
15 years ago or so, when Kobayashi Koichi was the top player in Japan, a series of games was set up between him and shodan pros, where the "handicap" changed every game. As I recall he pushed them to three stones. Lee's official rank is 9-dan but in practice he is clearly stronger, maybe 11-dan? If that were so then it wouldn't be surprising for him to push weakish shodans to four stones. I think it is also relevant that these are fairly quick games and the difference in strength will show itself more in fast games. Anyhow it's very interesting and I'm rooting for the youngsters
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:04 pm
by HermanHiddema
Mef wrote:HermanHiddema wrote:Actually, you can undo on IGS, but only if you know the right console commands
I think IGS disallows undo for league games, much like KGS disallows undo in tournament games.
I've done an undo in a game for the European Team Championship league, which is the one I assumed Javaness was talking about. No idea about other leagues.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:58 am
by Javaness2
HermanHiddema wrote:Mef wrote:HermanHiddema wrote:Actually, you can undo on IGS, but only if you know the right console commands
I think IGS disallows undo for league games, much like KGS disallows undo in tournament games.
I've done an undo in a game for the European Team Championship league, which is the one I assumed Javaness was talking about. No idea about other leagues.
WOW Please share how. This information should be detailed on the front page of their league sites.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:12 am
by HermanHiddema
Javaness2 wrote:HermanHiddema wrote:I've done an undo in a game for the European Team Championship league, which is the one I assumed Javaness was talking about. No idea about other leagues.
WOW Please share how. This information should be detailed on the front page of their league sites.
As I recall, the procedure was:
1. Player A types in the console: toggle newundo on
2. Player B types in the console: undoplease
3. Player A types in the console: undo
(At step 3, it is also possible to type "noundo", in which case the undo is refused and no more undo will be possible for the rest of the game).
Here's some discussion on rec.games.go from 2007 about it:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en& ... dgqGka6tNA
Re: Lee Sedol vs Andy Liu
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:38 pm
by Jedo
gowan wrote:15 years ago or so, when Kobayashi Koichi was the top player in Japan, a series of games was set up between him and shodan pros, where the "handicap" changed every game. As I recall he pushed them to three stones. Lee's official rank is 9-dan but in practice he is clearly stronger, maybe 11-dan? If that were so then it wouldn't be surprising for him to push weakish shodans to four stones. I think it is also relevant that these are fairly quick games and the difference in strength will show itself more in fast games. Anyhow it's very interesting and I'm rooting for the youngsters
I think it's very unlikely that both Andy and Ganshen would lose on 3. 2 stones might be in Lee Sedol's favor, but 3 almost definitely favors the american pros.
I think Andy's upcoming 2 stone match will be the first truly competitive one.
Re: Lee Sedol vs Western Pros
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:39 pm
by TKP
We'll see. Top pros like Lee Sedol are quite a bit stronger than your average pro. I won't be surprised if he manages to push them to three stones and that would be nothing to be ashamed of. He's the world number one for a reason.