Life In 19x19

Bill Spight wrote:My hat is off to anybody who learns go as an adult and makes it to 5 kyu.

Thanks, Bill!

Bill Spight wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:

Nyine wrote:All this can be resumed in this question: "What can I expect of myself?"

I believe everything up to amateur 5-dan (let's say EGF-rank, around 6-dan on KGS) is possible for everyone. Given time and money. How fast is a different question but - in the end - also revolves around time and money.

My hat is off to anybody who learns go as an adult and makes it to 5 kyu.

What's your cutoff for 'adult' here?

skydyr wrote:What's your cutoff for 'adult' here?

I'm OK with 30. 35, if you like.

Mike Novack wrote:I think perhaps people are missing something?

Nyine identifies as a beginner who has been playing just a couple weeks. Look at that game? Sure, lost, but did that game look anything like the typical game of somebody who has been playing just a couple weeks?

Nyine would be a very atypical beginner and so might need to be giving advice different than we usually give somebody who has only been playing a couple weeks.

What I suggest is that we forget about that couple weeks bit. For example, looking at that game, what are the most glaring things that Nyine didn't recognize.

I don't know, Mike. I think the "just keep playing (and maybe do tsumego)" mantra is more valid for people who are still improving quickly, and most valid for people who are improving most quickly. Receiving amateur advice on technique is only the second worst thing that can happen to a beginner (after not improving at all).

Hello there!

I'd start another topic, but I have this one already so I'd like to ask a question that is around my head today. I had a streak of lost games and my confidence went down really fast. I've been thinking that everytime I go to my local club and come back home, my game somehow does not improve, but the opposite.

Is it possible that losing the first game of the day conditions you to play with less enthusiasm? And how could I explain that I actually play worse after going to my club, when it should be the opposite?

At my local club yesterday I played 3 matches, won all of them, but the president of the club didn't see impressed at all and addresses me like if it was the first day yet... I'm not sure if that is a factor on my self-destructive spiral today.

Emotions play a big role in Go and it's important to know how to deal with them. If your Go-club is no fun then don't go, you won't grow stronger by just attending anyway (we have some fellows at our Go-club who just play this one time per week and they did not improve for years).

Then I wouldn't build my confidence on how many games you won. Neither on your rank. One wise StarCraft II guy (Day[9]) once said: Rank measures progress but not skill. This is oh so true. You can measure your skill by repeatedly solving Tsumego, Tesuji or other problems and track your correct answers and time needed.

Last but not least: If you know you can't play your best, don't play at all. This is also a very valuable skill to learn (patience) : )

Nyine wrote:Hello there!

I'd start another topic, but I have this one already so I'd like to ask a question that is around my head today. I had a streak of lost games and my confidence went down really fast. I've been thinking that everytime I go to my local club and come back home, my game somehow does not improve, but the opposite.

Is it possible that losing the first game of the day conditions you to play with less enthusiasm? And how could I explain that I actually play worse after going to my club, when it should be the opposite?

At my local club yesterday I played 3 matches, won all of them, but the president of the club didn't see impressed at all and addresses me like if it was the first day yet... I'm not sure if that is a factor on my self-destructive spiral today.

Remember this. As a beginner, you learn something every time you play. During a game you form subgoals to help you reach your overall goal of winning the game. Sometimes you succeed in reaching these subgoals, sometimes you don't. Either way can be a learning experience.

As a rule of thumb, it is good to win around half of your games. Since you will be learning a lot during your first year, you might try changing the handicap with every win or loss. That can be a lot of fun.

BTW, screw the president of your club.

skydyr wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:
I believe everything up to amateur 5-dan (let's say EGF-rank, around 6-dan on KGS) is possible for everyone. Given time and money. How fast is a different question but - in the end - also revolves around time and money.

My hat is off to anybody who learns go as an adult and makes it to 5 kyu.

What's your cutoff for 'adult' here?

20.

Nyine wrote:I had a streak of lost games and my confidence went down really fast.

Is it possible that you have just moved on to playing stronger players, as your own strength improves?

Remember, every game you lose is a free Go lesson.

Nyine wrote:I've been thinking that everytime I go to my local club and come back home, my game somehow does not improve, but the opposite.

We are superstitious creatures, and we are very good at inventing or misinterpreting patterns. (Although I'm assuming you mean you play worse the next day - do you mean you play three hours of go, and then come home and play more on the internet? That would be exhausting!)

Is it possible that losing the first game of the day conditions you to play with less enthusiasm?

Maybe. Or, you get angry and play with too much enthusiasm. Or, you were tired or distracted before you played your first game of the day. But if you have fun, who cares?

At my local club yesterday I played 3 matches, won all of them, but the president of the club didn't see impressed at all and addresses me like if it was the first day yet...

Hm, this was what I had in mind a few days ago when I joked that getting advice from amateurs was a last-ditch sort of thing. Or, consider your perspective after a teaching game the other day:

Nyine wrote:I'm aware that dozens of my movements were horrible.

Nyine wrote:I thought that I was not doing anything right at all!

I seriously doubt that EdLee told you either that your moves were horrible, or that you weren't doing anything right. But we go players all love this game so much that we get absorbed in the review and forget what sort of impression we're making on the reviewee. I always try to bring a light touch when I review, but I rarely succeed... the cumulative temptation to look at all the interesting possibilities on every move is too great.

Anyway, don't take it personally when your reviewer is harsh, or when you lose! If you win games, your reward is to change the handicap until you start losing again. The ultimate payoff isn't winning every game, it's spelunking further down the dark beautiful caverns of Go.

Nyine wrote:Is it possible that losing the first game of the day conditions you to play with less enthusiasm?

Happens to me all the time.

Nyine wrote:the president of the club didn't see impressed at all

Then you have every right to be unimpressed with his/her dress sense or taste in music. Go is meant to be fun.

Bill Spight wrote:20.

Much appreciated.

Thank you guys for your answers!

@SoDesuNe: You're right, I think I'm getting affected by the "I want a great ranking!" idea that most new players carry with them. I also think that your strength is based in how you play, not on a number. I just need to fix that thought in my head.

@Bill Spight: There are games where I am positive I'm not learning anything but how to get smashed, which usually happens when my mood has gone down, though it's possible that even getting crushed teaches you something (like not doing certain moves that lead to severe punishment).

@Peter: No, I'm sure it's not that. Yesterday I played against someone and a former opponent watched the game and messaged me saying something like "hey, you won against me big time and I'm way better than this guy, what happened?". It was just a very bad day. Probably I could not concentrate or focus for some unknown reason.

@jts: Hehe, I play a lot, even when I come back from the club. Maybe just against the computer or something like that, just to calm my mind with something more light. About EdLee, I'm not implying at all that he was harsh! His review made me realize of many mistakes I do during a match and made me think about how to improve those weaks points, but never said that my movements were "horrible", just pointed that some were "slow", others "overplayed", etc. in a very proper way.

@billywoods: Happens to you as well, doesn't it? I guess I should take a break after every lost game to calm down my mind before trying to play again.

I guess I should take a break after every lost game to calm down my mind before trying to play again.

I tel myself this: winning or losing that game isn't very important. Important is:
1. I have fun
2. I learn something
(In this order)

When I feel under pressure for wanting to win too hard I tell myself this. Then I feel more relaxed to play a move that matches criteria 1 and 2 (I want to invade here! Does that work? Don't have a clue, let's find out!).

Nyine wrote:Is it possible that losing the first game of the day conditions you to play with less enthusiasm?

This sounds different from you, but I prefer a little space between each game. If I start a new game immediately after finishing the previous one, it feels like it devalues it, and I tend to get a bit impatient and play too quickly. I prefer to let the first game sink in, and appreciate it as a whole standalone game. If I won, I want to enjoy the moment for a while. If I lost, I want to go over the mistakes in my head, before making a lot of new ones .

This means I don't usually play more than 2 or 3 times a day. Perhaps you just need half an hour between each game to recharge?

Nyine wrote: There are games where I am positive I'm not learning anything but how to get smashed, which usually happens when my mood has gone down, though it's possible that even getting crushed teaches you something (like not doing certain moves that lead to severe punishment).

You should be learning how not to get smashed

Many people feel that you learn more from your loses than from your wins. Its not as easy to see your mistakes when you're winning, but your mistakes will be much more noticeable in your losses -- "if I had only played here or here, I could have won". So you should be learning not to repeat those mistakes.

Just work on one or two of your most common mistakes at a time, then you can move on to conquer the next ones.