Life In 19x19

bgrieco wrote:I don't believe the problem is that Go is frustrating.

I believe the problem is with Internet Go.

I have exactly the same general frustration problem, but that only exists online. On my (now practically extinct) local Go club, loosing was not a problem. The opponent was there, in front of you. Colleagues at your side, you could have a bad game, go outside, take some breath, and return for another try.

I share this exact feeling, though am not sure of the reason I'm finding playing face-to-face so much more gratifying.

Playing (read "losing" ) online has been very frustrating sometimes, though in all fairness, this has had very little to do with my opponent(s); They are usually very friendly (I play on KGS and sometimes on IGS) Suspect, it probably has something to do with the camaraderie of an actual gathering of people....

I think I know what you mean.
In my case, I find GO frustrating because: either I win and then of course, that's nice, but I have no idea why I won. Or - worse - I lose, and I have no idea why I lost.
I am about 18 kyu, which means I don't make the beginner mistakes at the corners and edges anymore, the basic joseki or whatever they are called. But at this level, the only way to improve is to study, study, study, try to apply your lessons and fail (because most of the advice you will read is only valid for much better players and only confusing for my level). Since I don't want to study - I already have a very difficult job - and only want to have a bit of distraction, my way of dealing with the frustration is: play short and fast games, resign as soon as I am losing (or bored), which after 100 - 150 moves is often already clear and don't think too much about it. It's probably not the best strategy to become a good GO player, but at least it makes it a reasonably pleasant pass-time without too much frustration.

If you improve at any sports or games the competition stiffens.

Your brain is an amazing optimization engine.

In the upper regions every competition becomes a rope dance.

If you dont enjoy it, do something different casually.


From time to time I myself take a break from getting better at go for a fortnite or two and enjoy a different rope dance. Then I take it up again and rock on.

If you don't understand why you lost, then you can post a game on this forum and other participants will help. Most likely, at 18k level you just need to understand one idea in order to improve by 1 stone.

Subotai wrote:Why is go so frustrating?

A fascinating question - in many ways, a much more fascinating question than Go, and one that preoccupies almost everyone that has ever picked up a stone, to which the flood and variety of answers is testimony.

When i saw the title of the thread, the first thing that came to mind was Robert Sapolsky, who arguably has done more to illuminate the human condition even than Freud The question raised is really four questions wrapped up into one:
A: Why is anything frustrating to anyone?, and
B: Why is Go frustrating to me?

From which we also have:
C: Why is anything frustrating to me?
D: Why is Go frustrating to anyone?

From which we have a fifth question:
E: Why is Go frustrating to everyone?

Of all these questions, the one easiest to answer is the 5th, because its answer is, quite simply, "It isn't!"

I can prove this beyond any reasonable doubt by placing before the court the evidence of an eye-witness: one who does not find Go frustrating:

myself

.
.

.

.

Oh, no, wait a minute - it's not frustrating to me now, but if i think back carefully, i can remember a time when, in the privacy of my own room, and with no-one to hear, i did once shout "<expletive deleted>!" in a very loud voice as i uncontrollably jumped up from the online board in uncontrolled angst at what i had just allowed to happen to me on the board, and then immediately laughed at myself for being so silly.

And there you have it: it wan't just that it happened, it wasn't even just that it happened to me, it was that i had allowed it to happen.

To be young is to be foolish, even if it is not foolish to be young
https://aptparenting.com/causes-of-frus ... days-world

jlt wrote:If you don't understand why you lost, then you can post a game on this forum and other participants will help. Most likely, at 18k level you just need to understand one idea in order to improve by 1 stone.

I have tried that option, but at my level, most of those reviews are too high level. When I try to follow them up, it only makes matters worse.
I am on the level of: "first corners, then edges, then the center". Which is valid advice for a beginner. However, it's not completely true anymore (or not all), when you play against advanced players. At that level, sometimes one should give up defending a corner, or go towards the center early on. You should play big, but not too big, look for influence, but not forget about territory. And there is no simple advice for that, apart from recognizing certain patterns. Which means study, study, study.
I have tried, e.g,. the videos of Nick Sibicky on YouTube who is an excellent teacher, but if I try to play like that, I lose with 100 points of difference instead of 30
I have come as far as "don't defend too much and sometimes do something that seems hopeless or crazy or useless" (like cutting whenever you can), and - weirdly - enough, sometimes that works, but I still end up not knowing why really.

During the first months of go practice, I improved by learning basic principles one by one, such as:

1) Corners, edge, center.

2) Play on the third line to make territory, on the fourth line to get influence (which roughly means to access the center).

3) Good and bad shapes: do not make empty triangles, don't let your opponent cross your knight's move, etc.

4) Attack my opponent's weak groups.

5) Try to surround my opponent, and not to be surrounded.

If you try to apply everything at the same time, you will get confused, but if you try to apply just one idea for a few games, it will become a habit and you will improve. When I played my first games in a go club against stronger players (3k-10k), the review didn't last long, it was like one sentence, but a really useful one.

alasala wrote: I have tried that option, but at my level, most of those reviews are too high level.

At your level, the great pleasure is that you can still improve by a lot, and fast. Whether you'll hit the bar at 9k, 6k or 1d, remains to be seen, but I am willing to wager you can improve 6 stones in the next six months or one year, probaly more and faster.

I am on the level of: "first corners, then edges, then the center". Which is valid advice for a beginner.

It's a valid advice, but it's an advice for the opening stage, which is not where you will win games. It is perfectly possible at 18 kyu to screw up a game starting from a decent opening.

However, it's not completely true anymore (or not all), when you play against advanced players.

Yes it still is, but against advanced players it is even more difficult to win a game, even if you played a good opening.

At that level, sometimes one should give up defending a corner, or go towards the center early on. You should play big, but not too big, look for influence, but not forget about territory. And there is no simple advice for that, apart from recognizing certain patterns. Which means study, study, study.

Rather, play, play, review, play.

I have tried, e.g,. the videos of Nick Sibicky on YouTube who is an excellent teacher, but if I try to play like that, I lose with 100 points of difference instead of 30

Which likely means you haven't progressed beyond very basic tactics and strategy (stay tuned) and likely make major errors that cost the game.

I have come as far as "don't defend too much and sometimes do something that seems hopeless or crazy or useless" (like cutting whenever you can), and - weirdly - enough, sometimes that works, but I still end up not knowing why really.

I would not "do something that seems hopeless". Like you say, if it works, you still don't know why. Rather "do something that seems to work". If it works, you were probably right and if it doesn't, you have learnt something.

Now for the real basics that will lift your game immediately:

1. strategy: connect/move out your own groups on a large scale and separate/surround the opponent's groups, as long as these groups are not clearly alive. Go is "the surrounding game".
2. tactics: always be aware of your liberties and the opponent's liberties; in local fight, try keeping the upper hand in liberties
3. mentality: use the time you have to consider at least one alternative move, and read out 3 moves for the move you're thinking of and the alternative(s); then decide which is better

I'm nowhere mentioning territory, influence, shape, sente ... because I consider these already second level concepts. In the early stages, territory will come from living through connectivity, influence will follow from surrounding the opponent, shape will follow from thinking about liberties and connectivity and you may take the initiative whenever your alternative to the local move is a tenuki and you like it better.

Most of all you won't lose games due to outrageous blunders because you will remain concentrated on the moves

Post your next game here, make your own pre-review of how well you did strategically, tactically and mentally. Chances are you won't even need us for a while. Oh yeah, and play people of your own strength to measure your success.

@alasala, I took a few minutes today to look through your game history on OGS. I tend to agree with the comments of some of the others here -- you could improve quite a bit by learning just one or two things. You seem to have a good sense of when to defend your groups and how to make life when necessary.

I'd (as would many others here) be happy to review one of your games if you'd like. But if you do want to improve, I'd strongly suggest changing a few things:

1. Almost all of the games that you've played in the last couple of months are at incredibly fast time limits -- I think your normal is 2:30 main time with 2x0:15 byomi. That's crazy fast! If you just want to play a fast game where each move is played by instinct to blow off steam that makes a lot of sense. But to improve, you need to give yourself enough time to consider (i.e. read out several moves) more than just one option. @Knotwilg's recommendation of identifying three options for each move, reading them out, and choosing the best of the three is fairly standard and very good advice. But you can't do this unless you play with longer time limits. It's MUCH better to play one long game -- say 30min main time 5x0:45 byomi than to play a dozen super-fast games.

2. At your level, you might want to try creating an account on IGS and playing some games there. I think you'll find that you get games much faster than on OGS, but more importantly, the "standard" time on that server for automatch games is 1min main time with 25x10:00 Canadian time. That means that clock resets to 10 minutes after you play 25 stones. With those time limits, you'll have time to read, consider multiple options, and even to count. And while the rating system is not ideal, it is not nearly as sensitive as the OGS ranking system. So, I think you'll find that more of your opponents are closer to your strength. Plus, when you do play stronger opponents, you'll have handicap stones to make the game even. The norm on OGS seems to be to play even games even against players who are significantly weaker or stronger. That can be fun for a challenge, but not sure that is good if you are trying to learn new techniques.

3. Try not to "follow" your opponent around the board. You often continue to play locally when the position is settled and there are bigger moves to be made elsewhere. This is another reason to play slower games -- if you play fast, it is hard to pull yourself out of the local game to see the other moves available on the board.

alasala wrote:I have tried that option, but at my level, most of those reviews are too high level. When I try to follow them up, it only makes matters worse.

It can often be difficult to peg comments to players' abilities given that we have usually only seen a single game. If you post your games regularly, people will develop a sense of your style and abilities and be able to give you better advice. That said, you should also feel free to ask questions when things don't make sense.

alasala wrote:I am on the level of: "first corners, then edges, then the center". Which is valid advice for a beginner. However, it's not completely true anymore (or not all), when you play against advanced players. At that level, sometimes one should give up defending a corner, or go towards the center early on. You should play big, but not too big, look for influence, but not forget about territory.

I had the same feeling when I was at your level, but the interesting thing is that everyone follows "corner-side-center" to some extend in every game. Even in games where it looks like people aren't doing it, I promise you that it is on their minds, or they are doing it but using moves and techniques that you don't yet understand.

alasala wrote:And there is no simple advice for that, apart from recognizing certain patterns. Which means study, study, study.
I have tried, e.g,. the videos of Nick Sibicky on YouTube who is an excellent teacher, but if I try to play like that, I lose with 100 points of difference instead of 30
I have come as far as "don't defend too much and sometimes do something that seems hopeless or crazy or useless" (like cutting whenever you can), and - weirdly - enough, sometimes that works, but I still end up not knowing why really.

It is completely normal to get killed when you are trying to learn/understand new moves. The key is to stick with them and ask question yuntil you understand how they work. I honestly think you would improve tremendously if you spent some time understanding the rule that one extends the height of a wall plus one. This largely involves understanding how to keep the extension stone connected to the wall.

BlindGroup wrote:1. Almost all of the games that you've played in the last couple of months are at incredibly fast time limits -- I think your normal is 2:30 main time with 2x0:15 byomi. That's crazy fast! If you just want to play a fast game where each move is played by instinct to blow off steam that makes a lot of sense. But to improve, you need to give yourself enough time to consider (i.e. read out several moves) more than just one option. @Knotwilg's recommendation of identifying three options for each move, reading them out, and choosing the best of the three is fairly standard and very good advice. But you can't do this unless you play with longer time limits. It's MUCH better to play one long game -- say 30min main time 5x0:45 byomi than to play a dozen super-fast games.

I beg to differ on the question of time limits for alasala. For beginners, finishing a game in 30 min. or less is fine. Long time limits might drive him nuts waiting for his opponent to play. Maybe 10 min. main time with 2x0:15 byoyomi, Something that he would find appealing.

3. Try not to "follow" your opponent around the board.

Amen!

It is completely normal to get killed when you are trying to learn/understand new moves.

When I was starting out, I did OK if I only lost 2 groups.

Bill Spight wrote:I beg to differ on the question of time limits for alasala. For beginners, finishing a game in 30 min. or less is fine. Long time limits might drive him nuts waiting for his opponent to play. Maybe 10 min. main time with 2x0:15 byoyomi, Something that he would find appealing.

Maybe I'm just a slow thinker, but in byomi, I'd have a very difficult time considering 3 candidate moves in 15 seconds. I've always found 30 seconds to be tight, but I play it largely because it's hard to get games with longer byomi times. That said, the main issue is that he play games that allow him enough time to actively consider his options rather than just playing instinctively, no?

And even with more time, he probably won't spend too much time waiting on his opponents. I've always had a preference for longer time limits, and one of the interesting things I find is that I am usually the only one using the extra time. My opponents often play a 30 min 5x0:30 byomi game like it was a 5 min main time game. Since I spend a comparatively larger fraction of my time reading out moves earlier in the game, it's always entertaining to play a game where my opponent realizes he is in trouble, finally starts to use his time to consider his position, but it's already too late to do anything about it But then it's awful when my opponent plays a line I did not have the foresight to read, and I'm struggling in byomi while he can read it out at a leisurely pace...

Everybody is different. Maybe alasala finds go frustrating because he plays so quickly. Maybe he finds it frustrating because he is a beginner. The main things is for him to enjoy himself.

Bill Spight wrote:Everybody is different. Maybe alasala finds go frustrating because he plays so quickly. Maybe he finds it frustrating because he is a beginner. The main things is for him to enjoy himself.

Bill, clearly @alasala should do what they find most enjoyable. @alasala seemed to indicate that the source of their frustration was lack of progress. I was simply suggesting that if he or she wants to improve, one way would be to play with longer time limits that allow for more time to consider moves.

BlindGroup wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:Everybody is different. Maybe alasala finds go frustrating because he plays so quickly. Maybe he finds it frustrating because he is a beginner. The main things is for him to enjoy himself.

Bill, clearly @alasala should do what they find most enjoyable. @alasala seemed to indicate that the source of their frustration was lack of progress. I was simply suggesting that if he or she wants to improve, one way would be to play with longer time limits that allow for more time to consider moves.

Oh, we agree that he probably plays too fast. But I disagree with the suggestion of 30 min. main time for a beginner, unless that is an agreeable pace for her or him. It can even be counterproductive, as the beginner rehearses bad move after bad move in the mind. A beginner does not have that much to think about. That is not to say that I think that thoroughly reading out a limited region of the board to depth 3 or 4 by brute force cannot be a good exercise, but save that for exercise time, not play time. Unless that is the player's bent, of course. Bruce Wilcox recommended that his students play a whole game in 15 minutes! That pace would drive me nuts! As a beginner I took about one hour per game, but I was a slow thinker.

I've always had a preference for longer time limits, and one of the interesting things I find is that I am usually the only one using the extra time. My opponents often play a 30 min 5x0:30 byomi game like it was a 5 min main time game.

You're not the only one. In my case, the games are usually 20 min + 5x1:00 byo-yomi, because I'll need the extra time at the end. It's amazing how often I'll have used up half my time by move 100 and my opponents will only have used two or three minutes. And they're doing a lot better than I am.