Life In 19x19

RobertJasiek wrote:

skydyr wrote:There's not a lot of technique to it, just counting 1-2-3. [...] Just estimating each group to a multiple of 5 is close enough, generally.

You need to learn positional judgement from scratch. There is a lot of technique, and multiples of 0.5 are good enough.

bgrieco wrote:Can you guys point out some counting techniques ?

The topic has been mentioned a few times during the previous months.

Also worth mentioning here is that there is a very good book available which deals with this subject, if you're willing to spend some money. PDF file is cheaper.
You can find the link here: http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/

Highly recommended (by me, if this is of any worth.)

PS>
Fair is fair.

I don't count at all. And I'm just getting to the point where I realize what a handicap that is.

Hm, I want to say no. But basically I just try to judge by how big the areas look. If they seem to be about equal, cool. If not, and I'm behind, time to try and do something crazy.

So I'm not sure if you'd call that counting or simply positional judging.

One makes an average error per "counted" region of, say, +-X points. For several, say, R regions on the board, the errors might accidentally cancel each other or accumulate. Therefore, the total counting error is roughly between 0 and R*X points.

If X = 0.5, then R*X is still small enough to make good strategic decisions most of the time. If X = 5, then R*X almost always is so big that many strategic decisions must be wrong.

Therefore, just guessing counts or counting imprecisely is fundamentally wrong.

Even if R = 2 (each player has only 1 region), X = 5 lets be R*X = 10, and the error can be between 0 and 10, i.e., somewhere near 5 points. Already then, one cannot make good strategic decisions between enlarging one's moyo or reducing / invading the opponent's moyo.

There is only one way to meaningful strategic planning: rely it on accurate judgement!

So why is there so much talk about counting very imprecisely or by guessing? To improve, learn precise judgement incl. precise territory counting!

RobertJasiek wrote:So why is there so much talk about counting very imprecisely or by guessing? To improve, learn precise judgement incl. precise territory counting!

My guess is that this conversation is mostly about kyu-level counting (no offense.) Assuming that is correct, knowing you might be 5 points ahead (or behind) still does not necessarily bring you any closer to choosing good strategy. More often the game is tilted one way or another my much more than 5-10 points, and what's more - this tilt changes hands as games goes by, sometimes multiple times. I would say that in such situations guesstimate is as good as solid counting.

I think that even in dan-level games, knowing that you might be 2 points ahead by early middlegame means squat - because of the many subsequent mistakes, most of them of a magnitude much larger than this point difference. These mistakes might cancel or accumulate, depending on luck.

Your mileage might vary.

Yilun Yang's advice to kyu (and up to 2 dan, I think) was, "Don't count. Just play the best move." If my paraphrasing is wrong, blame me, not him.

Certainly, I (and he) understand that if you know whether you are behind or ahead, you might change your aggressiveness. But, in amateur games, we all make so many exploitable mistakes, that one doesn't need to overplay to stage a comeback, just exploit mistakes.

Finally, if you are so far behind that you can't catch up through "proper" play, you are probably far enough behind that you don't need to count.

That said, I am sure high-dans should count. Someday I hope it's a problem for me.

wineandgolover wrote:I am sure high-dans should count. Someday I hope it's a problem for me.

Positional judgement (and its counting) is not only for high dans but is also for SDKs and low dans. It is one of the important fundamental skills for strength and improvement, besides strategy, tactics, reading and psychology.

Positional judgement is important for
- knowing who is ahead or whether the count is equal, so that strategy can be chosen well accordingly,
- planning and comparing the effects and resulting positions of different possible moves and sequences, to choose the next move well.

Therefore it is essential for everybody - not something to be postponed for later.

Reading is the ability to imagine sequences and construct follow-up positions. Strategy and tactics choose among the latter. Positional judgement lets such choices be meaningful, whenever trivial characterisations (such as "kills" versus "does not kill") do not suffice for distinguishing well qualities of the choices.

I find that counting helps me find the biggest move more easily, so I count regularly during my games. It helps you look away from your local position and see where most of the potential is. There have been games where I didn't count at all, and suddenly my opponent has a big framework which is really difficult to reduce. If I had counted during that game, I would have noticed that there was a framework forming and could have played accordingly.