I'd personally favor 'a' over 'b' here, since 'b' would seem to encourage F13 by black. Where as 'a' invites the cut at D11, sure, but white can then form the "thousand dollar turn" at E11. Basically sacrifice that stone to gain some thickness.
Am I right or horribly misunderstanding something here?
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:56 pm
by dfan
Numsgil wrote:This seems like a case where you want to either do the bamboo or small mouth shape. ie: 'a' or 'b' below:
I'd personally favor 'a' over 'b' here, since 'b' would seem to encourage F13 by black. Where as 'a' invites the cut at D11, sure, but white can then form the "thousand dollar turn" at E11. Basically sacrifice that stone to gain some thickness.
Am I right or horribly misunderstanding something here?
Well, W's group is pretty safe, and D11 has the nice property of reducing the liberties of the C11 group. For example, if W gets C10 in, C13 could become a real problem.
By the way, C10 (after White's actual move at D11) would be a thousand dollar turn. The sequence you give:
Actually, the more I look at it, the top right is a royal mess. My bottom left makes this ok, but still bad. It's a 20 point actual loss up there, but I get semi-sente back with this move because of D4. Letting me play at "a" is hardly painful, but it recoups a lot of my top left loss.
One of the most frustrating things about the top left is the disappearance of a lot of aji. The squeeze of Black "b" through "d" is now gone, because the top group can't be attacked. There's still plenty of "let's make that thickness not very useful" aji up there, but it's not as good. I think the game is very close now, plus or minus 5 points or so, but that's ok, I can work with that
Isn't a living move, it's an attacking move. I can now take "e" and connect in sente at the cost of aji if needed for living space, and obviously I'm aiming at "a" directly.
38 and 40 are necessary to prevent a damezumari issue with the 4 stones. Up to 41 is clearly damaged and Black's left side looks good. White could then try to settle with 'a'. Compared to the current state I think Black looks better here.
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:56 am
by Zwergesel
What's the policy on reading triggers before deciding on a move?
Strategy and Thoughts First move that crossed my mind! It should make C13 sente for me, unless he wants to tenuki at the cost of getting enclosed! After reading the trigger though, the C9, B8 exchange that he suggested works too and might be a tiny bit better!
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:53 am
by topazg
Feel free to view my triggers before posting
Probably makes sense to think of the move first purely from an informative point of view, but I'm happy for you to look at my triggers and change the move too...
I don't think that exchange helps White at all. I'm still looking at jumping out at "a", and the possible bad aji I had from doing so before (White "b", Black "c", White at ) is now gone. I'm happy that White's wall can be negated towards the middle reasonably effectively if he chooses to tenuki now, but at the same time any move he plays has to be one I can ignore safely.
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:31 am
by Zwergesel
Strategy and thoughts
I thought that C13 was sente now, but I think I'm wrong! Black can give up part of the corner to get two sente moves, which is just unacceptable for white! The marked stones have no purpose, so giving them up is not a problem for black and the rest of the group should have no problems living or escaping!
Therefore I'm going to tenuki now and play one of the marked points: 'a' is my first instinct, but the proverb says "Don't use thickness to make territory", so maybe 'b' is better! However I have to find out whether that proverb applies here, so I'm going to think a bit more before I make a move
[go]$$Bcm43 Move 43 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X @ O . , a . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X @ X f . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X @ O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Hmmm.. this feels like the wrong side to me. He's got so much thickness at the top, and he's pushing me gently towards it allowing me to be strong when I get there. A further extension to "a" virtually eliminates the potential he could have built on the top side, and if he excludes it I'm aiming for "b" and the extension to "c". Still aiming at "d" generally (and probably would have played it if White had approached form the other side), and eyeing the aji at "e" and "f". Sadly, my corner messup (and the more I read, the more of a mess up it really is, it's at least 25 points, maybe more ) has left me unable to attack any of the marked stones. I'm definitely behind by 10 or so points at least at the moment.
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:13 pm
by Numsgil
dfan wrote:
Numsgil wrote:
This seems like a case where you want to either do the bamboo or small mouth shape. ie: 'a' or 'b' below:
I'd personally favor 'a' over 'b' here, since 'b' would seem to encourage F13 by black. Where as 'a' invites the cut at D11, sure, but white can then form the "thousand dollar turn" at E11. Basically sacrifice that stone to gain some thickness.
Am I right or horribly misunderstanding something here?
Well, W's group is pretty safe, and D11 has the nice property of reducing the liberties of the C11 group. For example, if W gets C10 in, C13 could become a real problem.
By the way, C10 (after White's actual move at D11) would be a thousand dollar turn. The sequence you give:
[go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X c . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X d . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . z O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I believe that Dfan meant that if black did not play here, white would get to make a thousand-dollar turn at z. Meaning, in turn, that the bamboo joint is worse because it doesn't threaten that followup.
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:33 pm
by Zwergesel
$$Wcm44 Move 44 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X f . . . . . . . X . 1 . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm44 Move 44 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X f . . . . . . . X . 1 . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Maybe it was the wrong direction and I was thinking too much ... stupid proverbs Anyway, I'm ahead, so let's just grab my share of the corner and build a solid position on the right! If he tenukis I get the whole corner ... not bad either!
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:59 pm
by Numsgil
Chew Terr wrote:Numsgil:
$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X c . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X d . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . z O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X c . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O O b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X d . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . z O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I believe that Dfan meant that if black did not play here, white would get to make a thousand-dollar turn at z. Meaning, in turn, that the bamboo joint is worse because it doesn't threaten that followup.
That makes more sense. Thanks ^^
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:30 pm
by dfan
Chew Terr got it right; I meant C10 for White.
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:45 am
by topazg
$$Bcm45 Move 45 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm45 Move 45 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ok, I'm not going to defend the corner and just let you build edge points. My extension along the top is gote regardless, and I want something to counter your thickness.
Triggers:
$$Bcm45 Move 45 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O O . , . . . X . . 2 . . | $$ | . . X O X O X . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . X O X O O . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . 5 O 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 7 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
Isn't a living move, it's an attacking move. I can now take "e" and connect in sente at the cost of aji if needed for living space, and obviously I'm aiming at "a" directly.
is clearly damaged and Black's left side looks good. White could then try to settle with 'a'. Compared to the current state I think Black looks better here.
) is now gone. I'm happy that White's wall can be negated towards the middle reasonably effectively if he chooses to tenuki now, but at the same time any move he plays has to be one I can ignore safely.
) has left me unable to attack any of the marked stones. I'm definitely behind by 10 or so points at least at the moment.