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Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:49 pm
by The Intrepid
Black could have also considered playing like this:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:34 am
by ikkyu
$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:17 am
by billywoods
I'll have a think about this.
Here is a mistake I could make at this point.
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W looks like an attacking move, but it actually just puts me in a drastic shortage of liberties. After
-
, it looks like black is alive in the corner and strong on the outside, and one of my groups will probably die. Of course, they're both weak - something will probably die anyway.
Here's an unlikely-looking move, but one that looks a little better to me so far:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WThe marked stone isn't very important.
here is making a base and trying to claim some of the corner. Black would be making a big mistake to cut the two stones apart:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wthen I play
as here. Notice that I'm not worried about the exchange black a, white b: black can't play c to cut me off because black's three stones only have two liberties left, and I can play d to claim the whole corner (and the black stone at c dies). Instead, after b, black probably has to play something awful like d (in which case, maybe I play c) or capture the white stone in atari (in which case I play d). Either way I get a large corner and both groups are strong.
Black really wants to keep me separated. This might work:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W...or black might die in the corner. The potential eyespace is quite large, but I have strong groups on both sides, and black has weird shape. Every liberty race I read out comes down to one liberty. I've read out a lot of variations, but not usefully - both sides may have crazy tesujis I can't find. Who knows. I'll post some later if I have time.
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:44 pm
by The Intrepid
billywoods wrote: $$Wc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WcThe marked stone isn't very important.
Cutting stones (like the marked one) tend to be very important. If Black were to capture the stone, his group would gain in strength greatly. In turn, the two White groups would become imperiled. I don't think White should sacrifice the stone unless he has no other choice, which he does.
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:31 pm
by billywoods
Sorry - it seems I never got round to this!
$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:02 pm
by EdLee
( For beginners. ) One possible continuation:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:30 am
by ikkyu
$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:26 pm
by billywoods
$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
As before. Black now has three liberties and a bit of a cramped position, and all three of my groups have four liberties.
So, my group on the right has a bit of eyespace, and space to make a little more. The next thing to worry about is black's next move:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BIf black tenukis, of course I play b to remove a liberty. This gives me enough space to connect my groups.
d and e are miai.
If black plays b, I'll probably respond at c to remove a liberty.
Black a is strange shape for black, and I've not yet decided whether to play f or g.
Black c might just about work. Perhaps I'll cut at b, allow black to play a, then play d to squeeze.
I haven't read any of this properly yet. I probably should, but I'm a little tipsy, and the move I played seems to be the obvious 'only move' locally.
Of course, the correct thing for black to do is to continue to split my groups somehow: a, b, c, f, h or similar.
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:37 pm
by The Intrepid
White's in big trouble. After the indicated sequence, Black next threatens to play at "a," "b," or "c," and White cannot meet all of these threats at once.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:17 pm
by ikkyu
$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
I'll certainly take this opportunity to capture the cutting stone. As I see it, white really has to play at A
$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 whiteMy plan is to use this to build up my influence and then renew my attack on white's top group at B.
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:38 pm
by billywoods
$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:49 pm
by billywoods
Come to think of it, capturing directly is an annoying response:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bbecause there's no shortage of liberties any more, so I can't join up my groups. Also, the cut at a becomes active:
$$
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$because, after
, black can ladder the white stone. This is quite annoying, and if black captures, I should probably play
immediately to fix.
also threatens to slide underneath the black stone on Q10, and also makes my lower right-hand group completely alive (I think). Then I have two weak groups - on the upper-right and lower sides - and black will probably attack one. I can't
keep making 'sabaki' dead groups all over the board - I'm going to have to make something live eventually.
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:22 pm
by skydyr
billywoods wrote: I can't keep making 'sabaki' dead groups all over the board - I'm going to have to make something live eventually.
As a rule of thumb, if it's heavy or all dead, it's not really sabaki, though I gather billywoods knows this already.
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:29 pm
by illluck
I don't agree with black's move or white's opinion of the capture. On ipad mini so can't provide much details, but I think black should play as below instead.
$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 whiteAs white, I would be extremely happy with the capture because black's last move already made the white stones stronger and is pretty much a pass compared with white capturing directly. White can connect as below. Given the handicap, white could even consider playing on bottom first and just keep the connection in reserve.
$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:39 pm
by The Intrepid
And if
at Q6, what continuation for Black do you see?
$$Wcm15
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm15
looks like an attacking move, but it actually just puts me in a drastic shortage of liberties. After 
- 
, it looks like black is alive in the corner and strong on the outside, and one of my groups will probably die. Of course, they're both weak - something will probably die anyway.
as here. Notice that I'm not worried about the exchange black a, white b: black can't play c to cut me off because black's three stones only have two liberties left, and I can play d to claim the whole corner (and the black stone at c dies). Instead, after b, black probably has to play something awful like d (in which case, maybe I play c) or capture the white stone in atari (in which case I play d). Either way I get a large corner and both groups are strong.
, black can ladder the white stone. This is quite annoying, and if black captures, I should probably play 
immediately to fix. 
at Q6, what continuation for Black do you see?