KGS trolls

[RBerenguel]

I played an 8k and jumped because I beat the 8k by such a large margin.

Just one clarification for those who may be reading this thread: margin of victory is not considered in kgs rating calculations. All (equally handicapped) wins and losses are created equal.

Are you sure Mef? I know in the formula there is no margin... But I remember an unfortunate incident where I won by 200 odd points that made my rank jump quite a bit

[Mef]

I played an 8k and jumped because I beat the 8k by such a large margin.

Just one clarification for those who may be reading this thread: margin of victory is not considered in kgs rating calculations. All (equally handicapped) wins and losses are created equal.

Are you sure Mef? I know in the formula there is no margin... But I remember an unfortunate incident where I won by 200 odd points that made my rank jump quite a bit

I am absolutely certain. The ranking system only uses an estimated winning percentage. Margin of victory is a terrible predictor of relative strength, and this is even before you get into the trouble of figuring out how to handle resignations.

[RBerenguel]

I am absolutely certain. The ranking system only uses an estimated winning percentage. Margin of victory is a terrible predictor of relative strength, and this is even before you get into the trouble of figuring out how to handle resignations.

Actually makes complete sense. I checked the game (it was almost exactly 10 years ago! And I'm still no shodan ) and I had a question mark rank, I bumped just two ranks, to be expected (my opponent was 1 rank higher)

[moyoaji]

On KGS, discounting pros, there is a list of strong players >>> http://www.gokgs.com/top100.jsp
If you're not on the list, those on the list can call you "weak".
I'm definitely not on the list as I'm weak.

This also coming from someone not on the list, but I don't feel like you ever gain the right or permission to call another player "weak" regardless of how strong you are. What does that really say, anyway? "Look at me! I'm really good at this game and you aren't as good as me. That means that you are inferior to me in this one aspect of our lives - but it would seem to imply that you are inferior to me overall because we both value this aspect of our lives. Look at how pathetic you are next to me!"

I don't feel that taunting or mocking an opponent is ever acceptable in go, but I feel this is especially true during a game. If you do this to random people on the Internet, stop now. Think of it this way: would you say these things in a live tournament setting? One where others are around and you are looking the other player in the face?

Now, if you know the person as a friend or fellow club member, then things are different. If you have a mutual understanding that trash talk is acceptable, then go ahead - it's your game, your friendship, your club, your culture. I can't fault that. And if a friend is one of these weaker players that needs to be brought down a peg, then maybe a taste of their own medicine is justified. However, you need to know the person.

I want to include a story with that, but I also don't want to take up much space. If you want to hear about the time I felt it was necessary to put down a weaker player, feel free to read it.

The only time I have ever done this was with one of my friends because he was doing it to me and I felt it was necessary to break his habit.

It was at my college go club. He was getting a big head after beating me in an even game for the first time. In our next game he started making comments like "You can't do that" and "Oh, please" about my moves. Sometimes he was right, other times he was wrong. Either way, I was getting quite tired of this and quite tense. Where had he picked up that habit? None of the other players in our club did this. I'd never done it to him. Wherever he learned this, it didn't matter to me. I knew it wasn't right.

So, after he made a particularly bad move, I declared "Wrong!" and proceeded to win the game by a solid margin.

For the next few games I did this reguarly when he made a mistake until he stopped being critical about my moves. Now such comments are rare in any game he plays. Another club member was grateful for this because it was happening to him as well.

It helps that I've never lost to him in an even game since that one loss. It really helps that now he needs 3 stones against me. But regardless of how strong I am compared to him, he shouldn't have mocked me during a game.

As for the argument that it encourages you to get stronger, I would have to disagree. Losing that first game to him was what encouraged me to get stronger - that week was when I first started to actively practice go outside of the club. All the taunting did was encourage me to shut him up.

[Mef]

I am absolutely certain. The ranking system only uses an estimated winning percentage. Margin of victory is a terrible predictor of relative strength, and this is even before you get into the trouble of figuring out how to handle resignations.

Actually makes complete sense. I checked the game (it was almost exactly 10 years ago! And I'm still no shodan ) and I had a question mark rank, I bumped just two ranks, to be expected (my opponent was 1 rank higher)

Yeah, this sounds pretty reasonable. Provisional ratings are quite fluid, especially if you score a win against someone higher than you (and especially if the couple of games you have on your accounts are more than a week or two old). Winning percentage-wise after your game you probably had a 100% win-rate against that rank, making a maximum likelihood value difficult to calculate (Though presumably you had at least 1 loss on the account as well...if you didn't have a loss on it, then it's possible to be catapulted quite high!).

[Boidhre]

On KGS, discounting pros, there is a list of strong players >>> http://www.gokgs.com/top100.jsp
If you're not on the list, those on the list can call you "weak".
I'm definitely not on the list as I'm weak.

This also coming from someone not on the list, but I don't feel like you ever gain the right or permission to call another player "weak" regardless of how strong you are. What does that really say, anyway? "Look at me! I'm really good at this game and you aren't as good as me. That means that you are inferior to me in this one aspect of our lives - but it would seem to imply that you are inferior to me overall because we both value this aspect of our lives. Look at how pathetic you are next to me!"

I don't feel that taunting or mocking an opponent is ever acceptable in go, but I feel this is especially true during a game. If you do this to random people on the Internet, stop now. Think of it this way: would you say these things in a live tournament setting? One where others are around and you are looking the other player in the face?

Now, if you know the person as a friend or fellow club member, then things are different. If you have a mutual understanding that trash talk is acceptable, then go ahead - it's your game, your friendship, your club, your culture. I can't fault that. And if a friend is one of these weaker players that needs to be brought down a peg, then maybe a taste of their own medicine is justified. However, you need to know the person.

I want to include a story with that, but I also don't want to take up much space. If you want to hear about the time I felt it was necessary to put down a weaker player, feel free to read it.

The only time I have ever done this was with one of my friends because he was doing it to me and I felt it was necessary to break his habit.

It was at my college go club. He was getting a big head after beating me in an even game for the first time. In our next game he started making comments like "You can't do that" and "Oh, please" about my moves. Sometimes he was right, other times he was wrong. Either way, I was getting quite tired of this and quite tense. Where had he picked up that habit? None of the other players in our club did this. I'd never done it to him. Wherever he learned this, it didn't matter to me. I knew it wasn't right.

So, after he made a particularly bad move, I declared "Wrong!" and proceeded to win the game by a solid margin.

For the next few games I did this reguarly when he made a mistake until he stopped being critical about my moves. Now such comments are rare in any game he plays. Another club member was grateful for this because it was happening to him as well.

It helps that I've never lost to him in an even game since that one loss. It really helps that now he needs 3 stones against me. But regardless of how strong I am compared to him, he shouldn't have mocked me during a game.

As for the argument that it encourages you to get stronger, I would have to disagree. Losing that first game to him was what encouraged me to get stronger - that week was when I first started to actively practice go outside of the club. All the taunting did was encourage me to shut him up.

Sure, but you also reap what you sow in this world.

[tchan001]

On KGS, discounting pros, there is a list of strong players >>> http://www.gokgs.com/top100.jsp
If you're not on the list, those on the list can call you "weak".
I'm definitely not on the list as I'm weak.

This also coming from someone not on the list, but I don't feel like you ever gain the right or permission to call another player "weak" regardless of how strong you are. What does that really say, anyway? "Look at me! I'm really good at this game and you aren't as good as me. That means that you are inferior to me in this one aspect of our lives - but it would seem to imply that you are inferior to me overall because we both value this aspect of our lives. Look at how pathetic you are next to me!"

To me, it simply says "Being weak, you need to get stronger to be on the list "

I'd rather have a strong player tell me "You are weak and you need to study more. Here is how you should think about this game losing moment." rather than, "You are so strong, figure out why you lost on your own. I'm sure you're smart enough." But of course, this is my own preference.

[Splatted]

If you challenge a 3d to an even game people expect you to be around 3d. Of course they're going to think your weak when they see you playing like a kyu player because from a dan's perspective a 5k is weak. That's not an opinion it's a fact and I say it as someone who is also around 5k. We have basically no chance of beating them. They don't care if we're 5k or 10k and they probably can't tell the difference in an even game. It's an easy win either way.

[Jermelle]

Okay I get unbanned quite soon. But the only issue is that my friends on KGS have told me (via. FaceBook) that they plan on harassing me until I crack again. This is the kind of stuff I talk about when I say "KGS trolls" Now I know the admins won't do anything about it this time because they think of it has teasing. But it's not, teasing and harassment are 2 very different things.

[Boidhre]

Okay I get unbanned quite soon. But the only issue is that my friends on KGS have told me (via. FaceBook) that they plan on harassing me until I crack again. This is the kind of stuff I talk about when I say "KGS trolls" Now I know the admins won't do anything about it this time because they think of it has teasing. But it's not, teasing and harassment are 2 very different things.

Just put people who do that on the KGS equivalent of ignore and get on with life.

[Jermelle]

There was a time when I was reported for harassment because I playing a student, he wanted too resign I didn't let him because it was still very early. the next thing I know an admin sends me something. But if i try and do it all I'll get is "censor them"

[Boidhre]

You didn't let a beginner resign when they wanted to? Do you mean, suggested they play on or berate them into playing on?

[Jermelle]

I suggested they play on, I killed a few stones (like 5-6 stones) and he just quit even tho it was so early in the game.

[moyoaji]

To me, it simply says "Being weak, you need to get stronger to be on the list "

I'd rather have a strong player tell me "You are weak and you need to study more. Here is how you should think about this game losing moment." rather than, "You are so strong, figure out why you lost on your own. I'm sure you're smart enough." But of course, this is my own preference.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

It is one thing to tell someone about a mistake they made after the game is over. Reviewing a game is never wrong and only a fool wouldn't accept advice on how to do better.

What I am talking about, and what happened in this case, is a person who is taunting a weaker opponent during the game. This would not be done to help their opponent, but instead to make the mocker feel superior. That is not acceptable and serves no useful purpose.

Regardless, though, the phrase "You are weak and need to study more" is not a good way to start a review. And the phrase "You are strong, figure it out on your own" is not a way to say that you don't want to review with them. Neither is acceptable in my eyes. How about "Would you like to review?" and "Sorry, I don't feel like doing a review."

If being civil is too hard for someone then, frankly, I don't want to play with them and would prefer they use a different server. I don't care how weak I am or how strong they are, someone like that doesn't deserve my time.

[DrStraw]

Okay I get unbanned quite soon. But the only issue is that my friends on KGS have told me (via. FaceBook) that they plan on harassing me until I crack again. This is the kind of stuff I talk about when I say "KGS trolls" Now I know the admins won't do anything about it this time because they think of it has teasing. But it's not, teasing and harassment are 2 very different things.

Strange use of the word "friends".