Life In 19x19

jts wrote:One feature of "intellectual" activities is a need for focus. The typical pop song on the radio is about two minutes, with a catchy refrain repeated several times so that you don't get lost. A symphony might be broken up into several movements of ten to thirty minutes.

Classical music was making use of repetition long before the pop songs on the radio, and I think it would more sense to compare symphonies to albums but I guess it's still true that it's broken up in to smaller pieces. The thing is, a (good) symphony doesn't rely on the audience's intellectual prowess in order to hold their attention, but constantly changes in order to keep them interested. I doubt there're many symphonies which require you to concentrate on the same thing for longer than a pop song.

jts wrote:Opera acts tend to be even longer.

Watching your lawn grow long enough to get a letter from the council takes even longer, but it's not exactly intellectual.

jts wrote:I don't think there is any great mystery why people tend to think of opera as an intellectual pursuit, or why intellectually insecure people who hate opera sometimes hesitate to admit it.

If you mean that it's clearly a matter of cultural bias then I agree with you.

jts wrote:There are plenty of other stereotyped features of intellectual activities, which don't always line up with each other, but which I don't think it's hard to understand why these features are stereotyped this way. How easy is it to focus on a subject? How much background or context do you need to appreciate it? How much does depth do you find with prolonged exposure? How strongly compatible is it with other intellectual activities, and how incompatible is it with anti-intellectual activities? How little does it depend on physical gifts or discipline?

I agree that these all contribute to the perception of something as intellectual, but I think you underestimate the depth that many mainstream activities posses. Success as a pop musician may be greatly effected by non-musical factors, but that doesn't mean the genre itself is any less valid. There are many talented musicians creating it and mastery is just as hard.

jts wrote:So I don't think it's a huge surprise that go is segregated as an intellectual activity. You can play it quickly once you get the knack, but you have to focus on a large number of decisions over several hundred turns, and without a clock new players can easily spend more than an hour on a game. You don't get to murder aliens, save up play-money, or in any other way use a fantasy life to focus your attention.

The imagination is a powerful intellectual tool that is well worth exercising.

Splatted wrote:Watching your lawn grow long enough to get a letter from the council takes even longer, but it's not exactly intellectual.

That's not fair. It only looks that way because I was playing go instead of mowing it.

Dudes, I do think your discussion goes too far.

Anyway, I come back to report my progress.

Yesterday I did't find good opportunities to lead the chat with my colleagues to GO.

Then, this lunch, I brought a set of 9 by 9 GO suit to company restaurant. I successfully attracted the attention from a group of French boys. But after my introduction of basic rules, they looked bored. One of them likened GO to 'jeu de dame'.

Minutes later, mechanical engineering manager came to me and tried to understand the basic rules. He learnt very quick but thought this game is too complex to master, he joked with me that he is too young to this game.

In addition, one lady stopped nearby and listened to my introduction quietly. She said there were some unclear questions for her and she would like to check with me another time.

Anyway I get some progress today. Thanks for your advice! I will keep trying to spread this mind sport across my company and record my progress here!

I second msgreg's approach. It's important to let beginners play (against each other, optimally) and not talk too much. Just say it's a fun game and has very few rules, sit them down and let them play a few Atari Go games. Real go can come later for those who get the game and enjoy it.

matthiasa wrote:I second msgreg's approach. It's important to let beginners play (against each other, optimally) and not talk too much. Just say it's a fun game and has very few rules, sit them down and let them play a few Atari Go games. Real go can come later for those who get the game and enjoy it.

Difficult to sit them down to play Atari game without explanation of liberty concept.

I really miss my friends who play GO but left the company. Otherwise, I can demonstrate a game beyond people…

Nice to read about your experience, I’m curious to read more of your reports

darkpolarbear wrote:Difficult to sit them down to play Atari game without explanation of liberty concept.

Well, it just occured to me that it might perhaps help to explain nothing but instead make a riddle out of it by asking them to find out the rules for themselves, and then playing one or two demonstration games of Atari Go alone, or by placing just a few black and white stones, some of them in atari, and then capturing?

I can imagine that such a playful challenge might make it even more appealing.


Greetz, Tom

Bonobo wrote:Nice to read about your experience, I’m curious to read more of your reports

Well, it just occured to me that it might perhaps help to explain nothing but instead make a riddle out of it by asking them to find out the rules for themselves, and then playing one or two demonstration games of Atari Go alone, or by placing just a few black and white stones, some of them in atari, and then capturing?

I can imagine that such a playful challenge might make it even more appealing.


Greetz, Tom

Thank you, Tom! Your suggestion may work. I will look for a proper chance to try.

darkpolarbear wrote:Difficult to sit them down to play Atari game without explanation of liberty concept.

Actually, its not as difficult as you may think (as Bonobo also suggests). The hardest part is to know when to shut up and not say anything at all (we often overwhelm beginners with too much unnecessary information).

When all the stones breathing straws are blocked, the stones suffocate and die.

As a very first introduction to go: place a white stone in the center of a 5x5 board. Then give a handful of black stones to your student and say "The pieces are called stones and are placed on the intersections of the grid. Place these black stones to capture the white stone". You may have to insist a couple of times, perhaps vaguely gesture to the white stone.

They will likely either surround the stone at the four diagonals, the eight surrounding points, or the four orthogonal points.

If they get it wrong, say "you have the right idea! For capture in go, we only need to occupy the stones along the lines of the grid. Then you get to remove the captured stone."
(Have them remove the white stone.)

Then place a white stone in the center surrounded by three black stones and give them a white stone and say "If you were white, where would you place this to avoid being captured." ("Try again" if necessary).

"That's right!". Then ask "how many black stones would it take to capture this white group?"
(they will likely answer either three or seven. If they answer "seven" then reiterate about "diagonals don't count").

There. Now they know enough to start playing capture go on a 5x5 grid. They take black and start first.

A few games might end in capture, but eventually the 5x5 games will end in no captures. At some point, black will inevitably play a stone inside their own territory. As white, you can say "Pass" then tell them if there is not a good move, they can pass, too, and when both players pass the game is over.

I'm writing up the "Boley Method" of teaching absolute beginners that starts with these instructions. (I learned it from Chris Kirschner's presentation at the US Go Congress).

Another good tip from Bill Camp: "Do not answer questions that are not asked."

Difficult to sit them down to play Atari game without explanation of liberty concept.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Of course I meant also including the capturing rule. msgreg has explained it well and it's the way I explain it too. Especially the not talking too much part is not to be underestimated

msgreg wrote:I'm writing up the "Boley Method" of teaching absolute beginners that starts with these instructions. (I learned it from Chris Kirschner's presentation at the US Go Congress).

I may not have perfected Jon Boley's method, but its essentially what I was trying to share with you when we first met in North Carolina

matthiasa wrote:

Difficult to sit them down to play Atari game without explanation of liberty concept.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Of course I meant also including the capturing rule. msgreg has explained it well and it's the way I explain it too. Especially the not talking too much part is not to be underestimated

Thank you matthiasa. I wouldn't make the mistake to underestimate other people by my cultural etiquette.

Today a French intern talked with me about GO in the lunch. He asked me several questions on basic rules. I found many French students heard of this game, and mistook the target of GO as capture opponent's stones. I told them the story of Pierre AUDOUARD 5D to encourage him to try the game after he goes back to France tomorrow. Wish French GO federation could have a new member!

xed_over wrote:

msgreg wrote:I'm writing up the "Boley Method" of teaching absolute beginners that starts with these instructions. (I learned it from Chris Kirschner's presentation at the US Go Congress).

I may not have perfected Jon Boley's method, but its essentially what I was trying to share with you when we first met in North Carolina

Well, is it possible that someone shares Chris' presentation?

xed_over wrote:

msgreg wrote:I'm writing up the "Boley Method" of teaching absolute beginners that starts with these instructions. (I learned it from Chris Kirschner's presentation at the US Go Congress).

I may not have perfected Jon Boley's method, but its essentially what I was trying to share with you when we first met in North Carolina

That's very cool. Last year I was very enthusiastic about *my* method, too. It took one more year of go experience to teach me the humbleness so that I'd be open to other methods

darkpolarbear wrote:Well, is it possible that someone shares Chris' presentation?

It's in discussion at this point about how to do that.

Hi Darkpolarbear!

Even the great (and late ) Milton Bradley didn't manage to interest the members of the ever sooo smart Mensa Club for go:

http://users.eniinternet.com/bradleym/MBGoHist.html

(scroll down to the Mensa section on that page)

Maybe that's a bit of solace.