Life In 19x19

skydyr wrote:There are certainly people who say that "there are no joseki in large stone handicap games" because equal results mean one side loses.

I disagree. White makes up the difference in a handicap game by taking advantage of accumulated small errors by black. There is nothing wrong with playing joseki in such games. Black may very well play them correctly but select the wrong variation for the situation, or black may play perfect joseki and make a reading error in a later fight.

DrStraw wrote:

skydyr wrote:There are certainly people who say that "there are no joseki in large stone handicap games" because equal results mean one side loses.

I disagree. White makes up the difference in a handicap game by taking advantage of accumulated small errors by black. There is nothing wrong with playing joseki in such games. Black may very well play them correctly but select the wrong variation for the situation, or black may play perfect joseki and make a reading error in a later fight.

I've seen two different schools of thought on handicap play for white. One is the, play fairly close to standard and wait for the inevitable mistakes to appear. The other is to do your best to create situations for those mistakes to occur.

Both seem to work well.

DrStraw wrote:

skydyr wrote:There are certainly people who say that "there are no joseki in large stone handicap games" because equal results mean one side loses.

I disagree. White makes up the difference in a handicap game by taking advantage of accumulated small errors by black. There is nothing wrong with playing joseki in such games. Black may very well play them correctly but select the wrong variation for the situation, or black may play perfect joseki and make a reading error in a later fight.

I agree with this as being a good way for white to play. I merely meant that joseki are supposed to give a balanced result, but the result in a handicap game is not balanced because black has an overwhelming advantage on the board already, so against a player of equal strength, it doesn't work.

skydyr wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

skydyr wrote:There are certainly people who say that "there are no joseki in large stone handicap games" because equal results mean one side loses.

I disagree. White makes up the difference in a handicap game by taking advantage of accumulated small errors by black. There is nothing wrong with playing joseki in such games. Black may very well play them correctly but select the wrong variation for the situation, or black may play perfect joseki and make a reading error in a later fight.

I agree with this as being a good way for white to play. I merely meant that joseki are supposed to give a balanced result, but the result in a handicap game is not balanced because black has an overwhelming advantage on the board already, so against a player of equal strength, it doesn't work.

Sure. But why would you be giving a handicap to a player of equal strength?

None. Learning joseki at the beginner level will stint creativity and impede pattern exposure.

DrStraw wrote:

skydyr wrote:

DrStraw wrote:I disagree. White makes up the difference in a handicap game by taking advantage of accumulated small errors by black. There is nothing wrong with playing joseki in such games. Black may very well play them correctly but select the wrong variation for the situation, or black may play perfect joseki and make a reading error in a later fight.

I agree with this as being a good way for white to play. I merely meant that joseki are supposed to give a balanced result, but the result in a handicap game is not balanced because black has an overwhelming advantage on the board already, so against a player of equal strength, it doesn't work.

Sure. But why would you be giving a handicap to a player of equal strength?

In handicap teaching games as white, I slightly prefer the strategy/concept DrStraw describes--playing "normal" moves without too many overplays, and winning based on black's cumulative errors. On the other hand, of several games I've played against professionals (with my playing black, of course), none of them has adopted this strategy. They don't play "crazy" moves, but they are aggressive and only occasionally play out a joseki early in the game. This is also the strategy Guo Juan advocates for white--as discussed in her recent online lecture "Handicap for white lecture 1."

Based on my experience, it is easier to win as white with this later strategy. You could argue that, if white can't win playing "normal" moves, then the handicap is too high. I don't really agree or disagree--they are just two different schools of thought.

Araban wrote:None. Learning joseki at the beginner level will stint creativity and impede pattern exposure.

Heh, for someone who skipped the Go Congress in their home town, you repeated Maeda Ryo's lecture perfectly.

Generally he said that kids shouldn't learn joseki from books or other people, but adults will take the shortcut and it can be ok. We don't have the time or brain development to learn the right way.

Here's a game with three josekis a beginner should know, plus a bonus shimari. As an added treat, ask yourself on move 56 where Cho busts in to Takemiya's moyo, and then watch him improbably live through move 117.

Hello everyone, I am a novice to the game and recently I played a game where my opponent answered an approach to the 4-4 point with an attachment that is the beginning of a joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . 8 . X 6 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .|
$$ . . . . . . 4 2 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 7 . .|[/go]

But after my continuation with , he did not follow as I expected:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 2 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

So, being a beginner, I quite didn't know what could be a profitable response of mine in this case. What would be the line of thinking of you, more experienced players? Also, is move a good variation, in the sense that it quickly prevents lefting a cut point and starts building a wall facing outside?

Thank you in advance for any comments about this.

Matheus wrote:what could be a profitable response...

$$W
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 2 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 2 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Hi Matheus, you have already profited, because makes an inefficient shape for B.

Possible continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . , . . . . X . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 2 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Or, if B is building something very big in the center, and it's more urgent to reduce it than the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . ? . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . ? . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . ? . . . . .|
$$ . , . . . ? . X . . .|
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? . 4 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 2 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . 5 3 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

But if the board is wide open as in your original diagram, then just the tiger's mouth is OK.

Thank you EdLee. I guess that relying too much on joseki makes one insecure when the opponent deviates from it. For curiosity, in the actual game I replied as in the last diagram, turning to the center.

Araban wrote:None. Learning joseki at the beginner level will stint creativity and impede pattern exposure.

Completely disagree.

Remembering myself as a beginner, the first few joseki I learned were like major epiphanies for me. They meant the difference between floating aimlessly and cluelessly through the first 50 moves and having some kind of aim and direction in my opening moves. So that I could concentrate on floating cluelessly and aimlessly through the rest of the game.

About creativity - in beginner games, whatever joseki you 'know' will most likely be diverted from on move 2 or so, so you still need to be creative. But knowing where the joseki *would* go if it went properly - gives you some idea about what to do with diversions. Especially in simple joseki with clear strategic aims, like beginners should learn.

So, while I don't think beginners should look at, for example, taisha, or that they should actually try to "study" any joseki in-depth, a shallow exposure to a few simple joseki patters is very important, in my view. And I think this is what we are talking about here.

Matheus wrote:...relying too much on joseki makes one insecure...

Yes. In Kageyama's Lessons in the fundamentals of Go, Chapter 7 is How to study joseki --
you may enjoy it. It's a very nice read.

Bantari wrote:

Araban wrote:None. Learning joseki at the beginner level will stint creativity and impede pattern exposure.

Completely disagree.

...

IMO, age might be a factor. Kids may be more harmed by rote memorization of joseki than adults, because I think they learn differently.

Kirby wrote:

Bantari wrote:

Araban wrote:None. Learning joseki at the beginner level will stint creativity and impede pattern exposure.

Completely disagree.

...

IMO, age might be a factor. Kids may be more harmed by rote memorization of joseki than adults, because I think they learn differently.

Well... in general, you are probably right.

But - getting exposed to a few of the the 3-4 move sequences which constitute the basic josekis I am thinking of - I would not call that 'rote memorization'. Its more like a direction-giver or idear-jumpstarter, something like that. It was of great value to me as a beginner, and I think other beginners might benefit greatly as well.

PS>
I think this all touches on another thing we have not really defined in this context: what do we mean by 'learning joseki'?
Might be a good place to start, or it may happen we are talking about different things here.