Life In 19x19

I guess the reason why it didn't go well is because people like to have a client. I hate having to open my browser and navigate to a website when I can just doubleclick on my kgs client. That seems like an unfair reason to not play on kaya, which honestly is twice as good as any other server but this small little thing just completely ruins it for me to the point of me sticking to KGS.

Ryuukun wrote:I guess the reason why it didn't go well is because people like to have a client. I hate having to open my browser and navigate to a website when I can just doubleclick on my kgs client. That seems like an unfair reason to not play on kaya, which honestly is twice as good as any other server but this small little thing just completely ruins it for me to the point of me sticking to KGS.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. There has been a fair amount of discussion recently regarding Nova.gs, which is also a web-based client. WMS has also been working on a web version of KGS. It seems web clients are the future, not dedicated apps. In my opinion, I would rather have a single web client that I can use from my phone, tablet, and linux computer. Also one that is centrally managed and therefore doesn't require any new downloads for people when new features are added.

The current trend is to try to put everything in the browser which I also find rather annoying (despite being a web developer). A native client is much more convenient, as it runs as a separate task and we have operating systems that are designed to isolate processes and allow us to quickly switch between tasks.

I appreciate that I can stay logged in for hours into KGS and restart my browser as needed during that time for example.

I made the same sloppy comment earlier, and Bantari pointed it out to me, so you're in ok company, but it's important to distinguish between native apps and dedicated apps. You can create a dedicated app that is more or less just a stripped down browser for a single site. Many mobile apps do exactly that. That gets you the benefits of tab switching and process isolation, without the difficulty of writing a custom native app.

Actually there are tools that do this. I have tried two in the past, Prism by Mozilla Labs and a more proprietary version which I don't remember how it was named.

In the end, I have resorted to just using a different browser in case of work+play time.

Even though I don't completely like the all-in-the-web trend (I prefer native speed), the thing is, web-only is the best way to ensure all systems (Windows, Mac, Linux, derivatives, tablets) have the most current version of the software, at the same time. Native means you don't get iOS or Android updates as fast, or Windows if the developers work mostly in *nix. I have seen it happen in countless projects (Mac guy, wait, Windows guy, wait, Arch guy, compile and wait, etc).

I think it's a shame that everything becomes more and more browser based. At least that's my reason to stick with KGS and Tygem. I hope nova will get a client some day, at least a android one.

Bantari wrote:But no business plan and no solid development strategy.

From the original Kaya announcement thread:

About the business plan. We do have one, a well written one, with statistics, estimates, development schedule, pronostications, details of the team, techonologies, market, reference businesses, competitors, etc etc.
Its just not public. We ARE talking to investors. We have moved our business plan in angel rings and VC's, contests and gaming companies. That's actually how we found our will-be iPad publisher.
[...]
We have a few strategies in the planning regarding the Asian community, but there is no rush to them. The Bar to compare to Asian clients is higher than to compare to KGS. In the line of production, we believe we will provide more than KGS sooner that providing more than those servers.
That said we have a few ideas (impossible to reproduce by Asian Servers) that have the potential to attract professional players. We think that if we get them, the asian community will follow. This very OCtober i want to stay there for a couple of weeks to make some quick-dirty demos to show some high level pros and get some feedback, and use as research.

I'm going to be charitable and assume that all of that was true and they did have a business plan and it fell through. It's entirely plausible that even with best intentions and business experience there's no room for a Western-based commercial go server to compete with all the established Asian ones and attract pro players.

palapiku wrote:

Bantari wrote:But no business plan and no solid development strategy.

From the original Kaya announcement thread:

About the business plan. We do have one, a well written one, with statistics, estimates, development schedule, pronostications, details of the team, techonologies, market, reference businesses, competitors, etc etc.
Its just not public. We ARE talking to investors. We have moved our business plan in angel rings and VC's, contests and gaming companies. That's actually how we found our will-be iPad publisher.
[...]
We have a few strategies in the planning regarding the Asian community, but there is no rush to them. The Bar to compare to Asian clients is higher than to compare to KGS. In the line of production, we believe we will provide more than KGS sooner that providing more than those servers.
That said we have a few ideas (impossible to reproduce by Asian Servers) that have the potential to attract professional players. We think that if we get them, the asian community will follow. This very OCtober i want to stay there for a couple of weeks to make some quick-dirty demos to show some high level pros and get some feedback, and use as research.

I'm going to be charitable and assume that all of that was true and they did have a business plan and it fell through. It's entirely plausible that even with best intentions and business experience there's no room for a Western-based commercial go server to compete with all the established Asian ones and attract pro players.

Well, yeah... Its nice to be charitable.
However - since they refused multiple requests/questions to tell us/me what the business plan is, I have to assume that either there was none (regardless of what the website said) or it was such that it would not gather much support from the community. But be it as it may - I simply have not seen them implementing any 'business plan', unless it was all going to be 'behind the scenes'. Which is weird in a 'community driven' server like Kaya was supposed to be. Especially after they asked for donations. This is one of the thing I was unable to reconcile for myself - asking for donations and refusing to disclose any business plan, even in vague details.

And this still leaves the lack of solid development strategy.

Codexus wrote:I appreciate that I can stay logged in for hours into KGS and restart my browser as needed during that time for example.

I prefer dedicated clients too but,

eh,

you can run more than one browser at once. Pro Tip.

Given that Kaya's officially dead now, what do you guys think about this sub-forum? Should I leave it up to discuss alternatives/the (hopefully) eventual open-sourcing of the code, or shut it down to clean up the front page a bit?

Adrian Petrescu wrote:Given that Kaya's officially dead now, what do you guys think about this sub-forum? Should I leave it up to discuss alternatives/the (hopefully) eventual open-sourcing of the code, or shut it down to clean up the front page a bit?

I think it would be helpful to shut down Kaya and "King of the Hill". I also wonder if we could take down "Insei League" - it was used most as a bulletin board by breakfast, and even he hasn't posted there in a year. And could "ride share to tournaments" be merged with "tournaments"?

jts wrote:I think it would be helpful to shut down Kaya and "King of the Hill". I also wonder if we could take down "Insei League" - it was used most as a bulletin board by breakfast, and even he hasn't posted there in a year. And could "ride share to tournaments" be merged with "tournaments"?

Yes, but only if all the posts are still available for reading. We could have a subsection "archives" where these unsuccessfull subforum are transfered (with read only access).

I'm not sure if it's possible to do this without breaking any links to existing posts, that would be very appreciable

For the kaya subforum, perhaps we could rename it something like 'Other Go Servers' and leave it as a place for commentary on them until one becomes established enough to warrant its own subforum.

skydyr wrote:For the kaya subforum, perhaps we could rename it something like 'Other Go Servers' and leave it as a place for commentary on them until one becomes established enough to warrant its own subforum.

This would probably be technically simpler to implement.

I just reported Adrian’s comment with recommendation to follow thread from there on … to make sure the admins won’t miss this