Is KGS developement dead or just slow?

[DrStraw]

I enjoy these discussions about the state of KGS development quite a bit. They usually follow a pattern.

1. Someone says that a missing bug fix or feature means that KGS is dead or dying (e.g., sound bug, one-colour go, speaking count-down byo-omi clocks).

2. People who have never written or maintained a go server agree that the bug fix or feature could be coded almost instantaneously.

3. Different people who use KGS regularly disagree with the original poster, saying that KGS isn't perfect, but it's fit for purpose

4. The original poster or those who joined in step 2 proclaim their love for KGS and/or go in general as an explanation of why they're so critical of KGS and/or its developer.

5. The discussion becomes technical as various contributors display their knowledge of some aspect of IT

6. The discussion gradually grinds to a halt.

7. People continue to log into KGS and play go.

You forgot the last one:

8. People continue to get banned by BD.

(Sorry, couldn't resist that. It seems to be a common sentiment on KGS.)

[xed_over]

There is no feature that MUST be fixed anyway.

I'd argue for sound as a "MUST"

really? I know a number of people who turn off the annoying stone-click sounds.

its not really a "must fix" issue. It doesn't prevent playing.

[walpurgis]

Just chiming in about the sound issue. The moment I don't hear stone placement sound anymore, I stop playing (and observing) games online. For me it is definitely one of the most fundamental things that *must* be there . Without sound it's all too easy to miss when a move has been played on another part of the board. And it's a nice background noise, getting a feel on how a game is progressing if I'm doing something else and have a game open in the background.

/off-topic

[Boidhre]

There is no feature that MUST be fixed anyway.

I'd argue for sound as a "MUST"

really? I know a number of people who turn off the annoying stone-click sounds.

its not really a "must fix" issue. It doesn't prevent playing.

Thus the "I'd" and the bit about some people considering it "fluff."

[jts]

I am genuinely curious. Why is everyone so bothered about the lack of sound? Isn't there enough noise in the world already? Isn't go supposed to be a game played in a contemplative mood - hence peaceful and quiet?

I am not trolling. I really am curious. I just don't get it. I never turn the speakers on on my computer unless really necessary.

I would really like sound more optimized towards my individual needs for third reasons: first, I need to have some sound on to hear PMs and to realize that I'm in byo-yomi; second, if I forgot to turn the sound off before using KGS and later on I really need to listen to something, the only way to get the sound back on is to reboot my computer; third, I am extremely bad at using byo-yomi time, and a less harsh noise and/or a descending scale and/or actual numbers would make it much easier for me to play a sensible endgame, and maybe to move into playing blitz instead of 9x9 when I'm short of time.

These are why I see the sound as an issue. More broadly, whenever things don't work exactly as they're supposed to, it's an issue. One of WMS's big themes in KGS design has been that he wants to have as few unnecessary choices as possible, so that everything just works. I approve, and I think having sound options that work as you would expect fit into that nicely.

That said, I realize that it's an extremely low priority, and KGS is a one-man show, which is why I'm not too bothered by it. When CGoban4 comes out, I doubt I'll say "Finally! and it' about time" - more likely, I'll think, "CGoban4 already? Where has all the time gone?"

One of the big things a new server needs is a single person or a small core of people willing to pump in a large amount of energy for a long time in order to achieve a critical mass. I think a lot of the go servers that spring up have people who have a lot of energy for a short time, then get bored and move on to other things. I'd guess it takes about 5 years or so for a server to really start to get settled in....though perhaps it's even longer...

This is a very important point. A lot of energy, over a long period of time, in a project that has a very broad (as opposed to deep) appeal. The main feature of a go server is the other players, which means you need a very broad focus so as not to push anyone away, and a very long time horizon to gather them all in. It seems that a lot of people see the design philosophy of a server as one issue, and its popularity as a completely different issue. So they find a server whose design philosophy appeals to their peculiar tastes ("We've got Fischer Time and Youtube integration! Inconceivable"), and then try to drum up the popular by saying really, really nice things about the server. But one of the things that has made KGS work so well is that WMS has run it for a decade without cluttering it with every new feature that someone got excited about, or without taking on a level of additional work that made his involvement unsustainable in the long run.

[xed_over]

I need to have some sound on to hear PMs and to realize that I'm in byo-yomi;

maybe I've misunderstood the sound issue -- I thought it was only the stone click sounds that quit working with Java 7. All the other sounds (PM, byo-yomi, etc) still work, no?

(and your second issue is a Windows OS issue, not necessarily a Java/KGS issue)

[palapiku]

I enjoy these discussions about the state of KGS development quite a bit. They usually follow a pattern.

1. Someone says that a missing bug fix or feature means that KGS is dead or dying (e.g., sound bug, one-colour go, speaking count-down byo-omi clocks).

2. People who have never written or maintained a go server agree that the bug fix or feature could be coded almost instantaneously.

3. Different people who use KGS regularly disagree with the original poster, saying that KGS isn't perfect, but it's fit for purpose

4. The original poster or those who joined in step 2 proclaim their love for KGS and/or go in general as an explanation of why they're so critical of KGS and/or its developer.

5. The discussion becomes technical as various contributors display their knowledge of some aspect of IT

6. The discussion gradually grinds to a halt.

7. People continue to log into KGS and play go.

8. KGS admins chime in with unhelpful smartass remarks, disregarding all criticism and typically saying that "people continue to log in to KGS" is good enough for them.

This is why monopolies in general are a bad thing Even benign, non-profit, accidental monopolies...

[maproom]

Ryuuuun, you wrote

KGS is nice as it is, don't get me wrong, I like KGS alot, but it can be improved upon drastically as it is pretty dated already.

I am tempted to ask, if you regard "dated" as a criticism, why are you interested in Go?

I accept that KGS has its defects. But while it's better than any of its rivals, I don't complain about it.

[jts]

I need to have some sound on to hear PMs and to realize that I'm in byo-yomi;

maybe I've misunderstood the sound issue -- I thought it was only the stone click sounds that quit working with Java 7. All the other sounds (PM, byo-yomi, etc) still work, no?

(and your second issue is a Windows OS issue, not necessarily a Java/KGS issue)

News to me, I haven't used a Windows machine in years.

There are several different versions of "the" sound problem. Mine is that if CGoban3 uses audio while no other processes are using audio, no other program can get access to the audio afterwards. And yes, to the extent that this doesn't happen to all users, sure, it's Java issue, it's an Ubuntu issue. But this isn't a problem that affects all Java programs, so I imagine that if WMS ever changes sound, the new sound will be designed for the latest version of Java and will fix everyone's problems.

[skydyr]

8. KGS admins chime in with unhelpful smartass remarks, disregarding all criticism and typically saying that "people continue to log in to KGS" is good enough for them.

This is why monopolies in general are a bad thing Even benign, non-profit, accidental monopolies...

There are quite a few other servers out there. KGS is neither the largest nor the oldest. http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoServers has a list of quite a few, and I'm sure there are others in Asia that aren't mentioned there.

My personal impression is that KGS gets targeted the most because it has enough stable features that aren't implemented well on other established servers. You don't hear too many people complaining about IGS's poor review capabilities, for example.

[Bonobo]

I think it is a common thing that we criticize those most whom we perhaps most love, but certainly those of whom we expect the most. I think the only question should be how we do this, whether it’s “solidaric” and constructive critique or not.

[DrStraw]

Just chiming in about the sound issue. The moment I don't hear stone placement sound anymore, I stop playing (and observing) games online. For me it is definitely one of the most fundamental things that *must* be there . Without sound it's all too easy to miss when a move has been played on another part of the board. And it's a nice background noise, getting a feel on how a game is progressing if I'm doing something else and have a game open in the background.

/off-topic

I am guessing that you must be a member of the younger generation who cannot function without constant and ubiquitous visual or audio simulation. Try settling down into a quiet corner for an hour or two with a good book and you will be amazed at the therapeutic value.

[DrStraw]

Ryuuuun, you wrote

KGS is nice as it is, don't get me wrong, I like KGS alot, but it can be improved upon drastically as it is pretty dated already.

I am tempted to ask, if you regard "dated" as a criticism, why are you interested in Go?

I accept that KGS has its defects. But while it's better than any of its rivals, I don't complain about it.

Notice that the OP seems to have faded into the background and others have taken up the thread.

[Bonobo]

I am guessing that you must be a member of the younger generation who cannot function without constant and ubiquitous visual or audio simulation. [..]

Sounds quite condescending to me.

I’m a member of which generation? I was born in 1957 … izzat old enough to be taken serious? I really need the sound otherwise I sometimes just don’t notice that my opponent has placed their stone.

But then again, attention problems may be despicable too, never mind the age, mh?

Grunt, Tom

[Mef]

I disagree with neither of you about KGS's origins. I don't speak specifically about them because, well, I wasn't around for the transition from IGS to KGS by the Western community and have only read about it here and there. My point was that it doesn't matter now. KGS is no longer the young, game-changing server that it was back in the day. It could be quite a bit behind other servers and still hold onto members in the short term just due to the inertia effect you both mention regarding the early days of KGS taking people from IGS. Pointing to server populations as a measure of how good a server is generally is incorrect, just as pointing to IGS in the early days of KGS and saying it was a better server because it had the big population would be equally odd.

I always used think of OGS (RIP) and DGS. I found DGS horrible in comparison to the feature set of OGS, I could never understand why DGS was so, so much larger until I remembered the inertia effects in post-monopoly markets.

This is more or less missing the point I'm trying to make, allow me to summarize it:

An important (perhaps the most important?) feature of a go server is having a person or core group of people putting a large amount of energy into it for an extended period of time. There is no shortcut to this step.