Life In 19x19

For me, "European" is a citizen of geographical Europe: a citizen of a country being in or partially in Europe; a stateless person with a legal residence in a European country; optionally either such a person in a Europe-dependent country or territory overseas (if such are not included for another continent or world region); optionally a non-European citizen with a legal residence for a number of years to be specified in a European country, Europe-dependent country or territory overseas (such a go player must then not use his citizenship to get unfair double rights, such as entering the same tournament twice); optionally a non-European, EGF-member-country citizen (as before).

For the EGF, IIRC, "European" is a citizen of an EGF member country.

Therefore, if indeed Fan Hui is a French citizen, he is a European under both my and the EGF's definition.

Javaness2 wrote:Can you turn pro in China without being Chinese?

Java,But I don't know the details.

Kirby, Robert, of course European professionals have to be European. But choosing to have a system of "European professionals" is a choice. You can't just take that as a given in the argument, any more than I could tell Robert that they have defined their system to have these three invited players, so by definition that is right.

EdLee wrote:

Javaness2 wrote:Can you turn pro in China without being Chinese?

Java,

Case study: Hei Jiajia (Joanne Missingham). She passed the pro exam in China, and made pro in China.
But she does not play as a pro who is part of the Chinese Go Association.
In the past, I believe she has represented Taiwan, for example. I'm not sure about representing Australia.
I also believe she is the only non-China-born, mixed-ethnic-Chinese person to make pro in China.

But I don't know the details.

I believe she is part of the Taiwanese professional system, and not that of mainland China, in addition to having spent much of her life growing up there, but I too am sketchy on details.

oren wrote:Question 2, this is amateur only. There's no reason to give the European Pro status to someone who is already professional with a different organization.

I would say this depends on the answer to my question #3, I suppose. What does it mean to be Euro-pro? Is it a vanity title you lose every year, or will you become a part of some 'pro' organization? If the former - its just a name and I see no problem letting other 'pros' compete. If the latter - you have a good point.

So I think it hinges on what Euro-pro really will be.
Personally, I find it weird that this does not seem to be specified. How should people know what they are playing for, if it is even worth the hassle?

Bantari wrote:I would say this depends on the answer to my question #3, I suppose. What does it mean to be Euro-pro? Is it a vanity title you lose every year, or will you become a part of some 'pro' organization? If the former - its just a name and I see no problem letting other 'pros' compete. If the latter - you have a good point.

So I think it hinges on what Euro-pro really will be.
Personally, I find it weird that this does not seem to be specified. How should people know what they are playing for, if it is even worth the hassle?

I find this a bit of a weird question. It's a bit like someone said "I'm going to be a baker", and you ask them "What does that mean? Does a baker fix bicycles? Or does he bake bread? Why isn't that specified?".

The term professional is about as unambiguous as the term baker, IMO.

Bantari wrote:I would say this depends on the answer to my question #3, I suppose. What does it mean to be Euro-pro? Is it a vanity title you lose every year, or will you become a part of some 'pro' organization? If the former - its just a name and I see no problem letting other 'pros' compete. If the latter - you have a good point.

I assume it will be the latter, and I still see little problem with the setup as described.

HermanHiddema wrote:

Bantari wrote:I would say this depends on the answer to my question #3, I suppose. What does it mean to be Euro-pro? Is it a vanity title you lose every year, or will you become a part of some 'pro' organization? If the former - its just a name and I see no problem letting other 'pros' compete. If the latter - you have a good point.

So I think it hinges on what Euro-pro really will be.
Personally, I find it weird that this does not seem to be specified. How should people know what they are playing for, if it is even worth the hassle?

I find this a bit of a weird question. It's a bit like someone said "I'm going to be a baker", and you ask them "What does that mean? Does a baker fix bicycles? Or does he bake bread? Why isn't that specified?".

The term professional is about as unambiguous as the term baker, IMO.

Can you define it, then?

Personally - I find the term "professional" in Go to be very ambiguous. Traditionally it used to mean somebody who passed one of the rigorous exams and become an official member of one of the Asian professional associations. It brings with itself all kinds of monetary benefits, as well as eligibility to compete in some high-money tournaments, special ratings, and whatnot. Among many other perks, but also other duties and responsibilities.

Now we hear that people Like Cornel Burzo are also "professional" because they support themselves from Go. This comes closer to your analogy of "baker", but its not really what most people mean when they think "pro" in Go. How about somebody supplementing their income from Go? You can define bakers like that - what about Go pros?

Will this be the case with the Euro-pros who do well in the tourney? Will it just be a yearly vanity term like "European Champion" or will it be a stepping stone to some more formal organization?

Bantari wrote:Can you define it, then?

http://senseis.xmp.net/?Professional

I think senseis does a reasonable job for it. Just add the AGA and EGF as organizations handling professional diplomas.

"In go terms, a professional is a go player who has received a professional diploma from one of the professional go associations."

hyperpape wrote:Kirby, Robert, of course European professionals have to be European. But choosing to have a system of "European professionals" is a choice. You can't just take that as a given in the argument, any more than I could tell Robert that they have defined their system to have these three invited players, so by definition that is right.

I am not arguing with you here.

Bantari wrote:Now we hear that people Like Cornel Burzo are also "professional" because they support themselves from Go.

Huh? The only reference to Cornel Burzo in this thread is Uberdude explaining that Cornel is not a professional, despite the fact that he earns money from go.

There are two kinds of go professionals: 1) by status, 2) by income. A person can, but need not, be of both kinds. Presumably, the EGF intends to create kind (1) professionals. Clarification by the EGF can help. In particular, there should be clarification if the status is permanent or temporary, if the status is automatically and necessarily gained by winning a qualification tournament, if a person may have the status and a different status (e.g., issued by a professional organisation) simultaneously, if the status is related to any so called professional ranks, which rights and duties the status implies.

Kirby wrote:

hyperpape wrote:Kirby, Robert, of course European professionals have to be European. But choosing to have a system of "European professionals" is a choice. You can't just take that as a given in the argument, any more than I could tell Robert that they have defined their system to have these three invited players, so by definition that is right.

I am not arguing with you here.

Cool. I guess I didn't parse your past message well enough then .

HermanHiddema wrote:

Bantari wrote:Now we hear that people Like Cornel Burzo are also "professional" because they support themselves from Go.

Huh? The only reference to Cornel Burzo in this thread is Uberdude explaining that Cornel is not a professional, despite the fact that he earns money from go.

If he was baking, he would be a baker, no? Or do you need a baking diploma in Europe to call yourself so?

oren wrote:

Bantari wrote:Can you define it, then?

http://senseis.xmp.net/?Professional

I think senseis does a reasonable job for it. Just add the AGA and EGF as organizations handling professional diplomas.

"In go terms, a professional is a go player who has received a professional diploma from one of the professional go associations."

I know that, even stated something to this effect in my post.
But HH likened a Go Professional to a baker, so I wanted to know *his* definition of the term.
To me Go Professional is not at all like a baker, precisely for the reasons described on the page you gave.

Which makes it important and interesting to precisely state what the Euro-pro will be, and what organization he/she will belong to, what will this organization do, and so on... I don't think this question should just be brushed away like that.