Life In 19x19

xed_over wrote:if you can't see their clock, then how do you know when they've lost on time?

the server will tell you

I will say that is a really really bad idea. Let me explain:

First, Go still remains to be a perfect information game including time, meaning that even if you hide the clock of your oponent, you can actually calculate your oponent time (for pratical purposes is mor confortable just to play with a phisical clock by your side). So you actually win nothing with this change.

Second, it promotes distrust and conflicts, since you cannot avoid you opponent from calculating or measuring your remaining time, what this rule psycologicaly implies that it should not be done, you will always thing that he is cheating on you.

Third, it creates an non-Go skill adventage, just by be able to economically afford a Go clock or not.

Forth, it creates an unecesary distraction... makes timing important when it should not be. Go should be the only thing that matters.

Fifth, it cannot be universally applied... in Absolute timing, the oponent time is too important.


Sixt, if your only concern is that you don't like when your oponent plays stupid moves to try to win by time (I know that is really anoying) you have much beter solutions:

a) Get strong enought that it doesn't matter anymore (at some rank point people stop doing it, either gamemanship of being serious players or just beacause they know that usually you only lost points that way).
b) Don't obsess with lossing that way (usually it only shows the lack of skill and desesperation of your opponent).
c) Play with no time limit.

An probably the easiest one:
d) Play with Japanese byo-yomi of 60 seconds (time enought to solve most of the stupid moves, so the opponent don't even try them).

I don't trot it out in every such discussion, but I take it as a given that options are almost always a cost to the user. There are ways to make options more or less painful to deal with, but they're always a cost.

This sort of option is one of the worst kinds : timing systems on KGS are already too fragmented. Viewing the open games list is like doing a constraint satisfaction problem: which of these slew of games has time settings I can live with? One of the big advantages of automatch is that I just choose Blitz/Fast/Medium.

Now you're proposing adding yet another option to that. At some point, the time settings alone will stop being viewable, at least if you're on a tablet.

hyperpape wrote:I don't trot it out in every such discussion, but I take it as a given that options are almost always a cost to the user. There are ways to make options more or less painful to deal with, but they're always a cost.

That's kind of a weird point to make... Sure, they may be a cost, but they also have a value/benefit. The question is whether or not that value/benefit outweighs the cost. And eliminating options from the software doesn't actually remove the cost or the option for the user... it just shifts the question from whether or not to use the option in that software to whether or not to use the software at all.

hyperpape wrote:This sort of option is one of the worst kinds : timing systems on KGS are already too fragmented. Viewing the open games list is like doing a constraint satisfaction problem: which of these slew of games has time settings I can live with? One of the big advantages of automatch is that I just choose Blitz/Fast/Medium.

Now you're proposing adding yet another option to that. At some point, the time settings alone will stop being viewable, at least if you're on a tablet.

I sort of agree with what you're saying here, but at the same time, you're just pointing out a flaw in how information is presented on one particular Go server (neither the original post nor the topic mention KGS, btw). It would be a really sad world if discussions of feature ideas for Go servers were limited to what would work in KGS's existing UI.

The real problem with the idea of hiding your clock from your opponent (imo, and has already been touched on) is that it's about concealing information in a perfect information game, which can then give an edge to those who manually track that information over those who don't (as Ellyster wrote in great detail ).

hyperpape wrote:This sort of option is one of the worst kinds : timing systems on KGS are already too fragmented. Viewing the open games list is like doing a constraint satisfaction problem: which of these slew of games has time settings I can live with? One of the big advantages of automatch is that I just choose Blitz/Fast/Medium

The hacked KGS client does help in this regard as it displays the time setting of each game in the list rather than requiring a mouse over for a pop-up.

I also don't see what the problem with trying to take advantage of people that are dilly-dallying with the time. It is actually pretty difficult to create time consuming tesuji on-the-fly, I have tried on a number of occasions, and usually players have enough cheap endgame moves that they can get out of it anyway, maybe with a few less ko-threats, or few less than optimal points.

LocoRon wrote:And eliminating options from the software doesn't actually remove the cost or the option for the user... it just shifts the question from whether or not to use the option in that software to whether or not to use the software at all.

If it's a big enough deal for them, that's true. Otherwise, they just use the software and never think about it.

I know some options are necessary. But I think a lot of people think of this as "why NOT have some hypothetical option?" But I think for a large class of software, the better attitude is "justify this option, because it has a cost."

If options are orthogonal, don't create unpredictable behavior, and are invisible to the user in ordinary use, then they're close to free. In practice, that's very hard to do, and it certainly doesn't apply in this case--it's an option that affects both you and your opponent.

LocoRon wrote:I sort of agree with what you're saying here, but at the same time, you're just pointing out a flaw in how information is presented on one particular Go server (neither the original post nor the topic mention KGS, btw). It would be a really sad world if discussions of feature ideas for Go servers were limited to what would work in KGS's existing UI.

Maybe KGS is suboptimal here, but the real issue is that people have a ton of preferences concerning time control. Too many, in fact. Any server is going to have to make choices or swamp us with information.

And even if the only options were "Fast/Medium/Blitz", I'd count being able to show or hide your clock as noise. Even if there's few enough other options to make things simple overall, that's an extraneous option.

P.S. I do agree that it's weird to try and add imperfect information to Go.

Boidhre wrote: If you're using Fischer (some tournaments do)...

Fischer is pretty straightforward:

Initial time + (moves they played x increment) - (time elapsed - time I've used))

Time I've used = Initial time + moves I've played x increment - time remaining.

Any system where you can lose extra time (byo-yomi, Canadian, Bronstein, etc) would be impossible though

walleye wrote:On the other hand, since my opponent can see my clock, he might want to launch some complications just as I get short on time.

Pros often use such tactics. Moreover, as Mef points out, it isn't that difficult to figure out how much main time your opponent has left.

If overtime countdown is involved, then it might be less accurate, but it would not be very difficult to estimate when your opponent is in byo-yomi. Why not just play the game? If you can't handle complications invented by your opponent, then just view them as interesting mini challenges that spice up your games.

lemmata wrote:

walleye wrote:On the other hand, since my opponent can see my clock, he might want to launch some complications just as I get short on time.

Pros often use such tactics. Moreover, as Mef points out, it isn't that difficult to figure out how much main time your opponent has left.

If overtime countdown is involved, then it might be less accurate, but it would not be very difficult to estimate when your opponent is in byo-yomi. Why not just play the game? If you can't handle complications invented by your opponent, then just view them as interesting mini challenges that spice up your games.

Why not just have an option to hide the clocks?

You say pros use such tactics. Is that your main argument against an option to hide the clocks? In any case, I wasn't talking about tournaments.

It's not easy to keep track of the time left for your opponent if you don't see his clock. You need a tool for that, and you'll be wasting your own time using it. It won't be accurate, but even if it were, it would barely make any difference. No one but crackpots would use it for casual games. So, I don't buy this argument at all.

I understand some people believe time is an important part of the game and should not be hidden. Obviously, the option to hide the clocks is for the other people, those who believe time should not get in the way of friendly casual games. So, this argument doesn't hold water either.

walleye wrote:I understand some people believe time is an important part of the game and should not be hidden. Obviously, the option to hide the clocks is for the other people, those who believe time should not get in the way of friendly casual games. So, this argument doesn't hold water either.

If you want to hide time, put a sticky on your monitor? You have the easy option to do it, and it's very low tech.

oren wrote:

walleye wrote:I understand some people believe time is an important part of the game and should not be hidden. Obviously, the option to hide the clocks is for the other people, those who believe time should not get in the way of friendly casual games. So, this argument doesn't hold water either.

If you want to hide time, put a sticky on your monitor? You have the easy option to do it, and it's very low tech.

I'm talking about an option that conceals the opponent's clock for both players.

walleye wrote:I'm talking about an option that conceals the opponent's clock for both players.

I'm really sorry, but I do not understand.

Please describe this option, how it might work. How could something running on the server or my opponent's computer or even my own computer prevent me from performing time recording operations (keep track of time from when I make a move till when my opponent next makes a move; an ordinary chess clock can do that, or preferably a go clock that can handle the particular choice of time options (Fisher, etc.)

In other words, like you are playing a physically present opponent over the board and so using a physical clock. Except you hit this in reverse.

Dear literal minded people: although I don't like his idea, he obviously means a setting in which by default your opponent does not see your time. Nothing can prevent your opponent from calculating your time, but few people are going to do that, and the ones who do deserve what they get.

Edit: this is trivial in sudden-death, not so hard in Japanese byo-yomi, but few people are going to do it for Fischer or Canadian byo-yomi.

walleye wrote:It's not easy to keep track of the time left for your opponent if you don't see his clock. You need a tool for that, and you'll be wasting your own time using it. It won't be accurate, but even if it were, it would barely make any difference. No one but crackpots would use it for casual games. So, I don't buy this argument at all.

We're talking about playing on computers right? Is there perhaps a clock on the bottom right of your screen right now? If we start a main time game at 2:34, and it's now 2:46 and I've got 3:00 on my clock, then I know you have somewhere around 5:00 on yours. It really doesn't take any meaningful time at all for me to subtract 3 small numbers.

That's the problem. This is simple arithmetic you can do in your head. Or just estimate (he's probably taken about a minute longer than I have). It doesn't require somebody to have a ing timer on their desk that they press every move, just a clock already being displayed on their monitor.

So now I know when you're in byomi but you don't know when I am. I've got an advantage. You haven't made time irrelevant, you've just turned time estimation into a new skill I can use in a game. Most of us don't want to compete in 'who's keeping better track of time' while playing go, so we prefer that the clocks are just seen.

I understand some people believe time is an important part of the game and should not be hidden. Obviously, the option to hide the clocks is for the other people, those who believe time should not get in the way of friendly casual games. So, this argument doesn't hold water either.

Yes, if I'm in 10 second sudden death, I believe time is an important part of the game. If you don't want time to get in the way, why use such tight time controls that it matters? The fact that I lose if I click a move a second late sounds much more like time getting in the way then knowing my opponents clock.