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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:44 am
by Magicwand
dfan wrote:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcCan someone stronger than me evaluate the marked exchange? It feels to me like Black has helped White protect the cut for free. On the other hand it might be worth something territorially.
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:45 am
by Zwergesel
Yay, observer comments! I'm so curious! I bet I'm getting criticised
$$Wcm32 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm32 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Only move, really! If he tries to cut me off, I think I can catch his marked stones, since his peep made my "wall" so strong:
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:08 am
by Redundant
$$Bcm33 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm33 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:41 am
by Numsgil
Zwergesel wrote:
$$Wcm28 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm28 Prisoners: W=0, B=0[hide]I feel that I'm falling behind in points! I need to reduce his right side!
Not for players
With my rudimentary understanding of sector lines, I don't think this is a reduction. I think it's an invasion (with all the baggage that comes with that). White's move is (barely) inside black's smaller sector line, and definitely inside black's larger sector line (though that line is a bit longer than 10 units, so it doesn't count for much I don't think).
$$Wcm28
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm28 For instance, if black and white play like this, white's "reduction" is suddenly looking a bit like an invasion (white could try to hane earlier, but then I think he'd need to treat the original move as a sacrifice when black cuts. (Well, it starts to involve lots of tactical reading to see if black's group sandwiched between white can be captured)).
$$Wcm28
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm28 I won't try to comment on whether it's a good move or not, but I
think white's reasoning is off if he thinks this is a reduction.
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:02 pm
by Zwergesel
$$Wcm34 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm34 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
I just feel that this move is important! If black hanes there, I wouldn't want to ignore it, because a second move makes my corner really small and potentially even kills it in which case I'd have to run into the center! On the other hand if I play it now, it is pretty much sente, or I destroy the precious territory that took him so many moves to secure!
Some sequences I see:
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0He can't really do this, so he probably needs to extend once more! However, the second push might not be big enough for him to treat it as sente at all!
If I get to play the marked stone, I have this sequence:
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0or this, which looks good, but I haven't read it all the way to the end:
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:11 pm
by hoohoo
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:12 pm
by Redundant
$$Bcm35 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm35 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:35 pm
by Zwergesel
$$Wcm36 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm36 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Interesting! I did not expect him to ignore my move! I guess I can't tenuki to take 'a', but this still feels fine for me! I can give up the marked stones and take territory on the left with 'b' or save them with 'c'! If he plays 'c' next, I will play 'b' and then 'a' or 'd' depending on where he defends!
$$Wcm36 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm36 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:52 pm
by Redundant
$$Bcm37 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm37 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$Bcm37 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm37 Prisoners: W=0, B=0is better than
$$Bcm37 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm37 Prisoners: W=0, B=0is better than
$$Bcm37 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm37 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:38 pm
by Zwergesel
$$Wcm38 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm38 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
See above,
is almost the same as 'c'
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:32 pm
by Redundant
$$Bcm39 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm39 Prisoners: W=0, B=0Question for the audience:
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:48 pm
by Chew Terr
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:40 pm
by Zwergesel
$$Wcm40 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm40 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Two things: 'a', that I wanted to play earlier, is too far:
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0Ko, but I don't think it's favorable for me! So I can only jump to
in above diagram!
Secondly, I think that the left bigger right now and defending the right is gote for black!
I'm hoping for something like this:
strengthens both sides!
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0If he plays
more aggressively and hanes, I'll have to read a bit, but I should be able to play something similar!
might be good at a point around 'a' too!
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:53 pm
by Redundant
$$Bcm41 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Too good for me.
$$Bcm41 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: W=0, B=0I'm fine with third line territory here.
$$Bcm41 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: W=0, B=0I'll cross this bridge when I come to it.
$$Bcm41 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:53 am
by Zwergesel
$$Wcm42 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm42 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Extending seems like the right thing to do, because it doesn't give him an atari and it doesn't allow him to break through into my area! C12 is a followup which strengthens my left side, so I expect him to play there first, giving me sente!
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0for
I'm currently looking at a-e
is almost the same as 'c'
in above diagram!
strengthens both sides!
more aggressively and hanes, I'll have to read a bit, but I should be able to play something similar! 
I'm currently looking at a-e