As weird as it may seem, a lot of people don't see that difference very clearly at all.
Well, in this one case, I do see it, and I would regard an endgame move in the top left as slightly less bad than a pass from any opponent, but I know there's a lot of seemingly similar situations where I might not be fully aware.
I remember being even more lost than I am now, and seeing even less than I do now. It really feels like gradually receding blindness.
That said, one of the things which really helps is intense (sometimes expletive) emphasis added to contrasting diagrams. It helped get me to try to see this obvious, glaring difference I SHOULD be seeing. Sometimes a little encouragement goes a long way.
OCA's log
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EdLee
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Bill Spight
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Re: OCA's log
oca wrote:Here are two situations, starting with a double nin-ren-sei
In both situation, let's say the disucssed end game move (in first diagram and
in the second one) is played (way) too early...
In both diagrams, by some kind of 'reflex move' I'm quite sure that I would have replied at 'a'
In the first diagram, 'b' to 'e' are other ideas that should be better, as I think the best reply to an early end game move is to ignore it...
'b' looks nice, but how to 'measure' that this is a more valuable move then 'a' ?
I think one answer is "Common sense" / experience / intuition, but I would like to quantify that, just to help me becoming more confident when ignoring early end game move...
Let's try my heuristic.
Which do you like better?
Diagram A?
Or Diagram B?
Which do you like better?
Diagram C?
Or Diagram D?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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oca
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Re:
EdLee wrote:...
This is only my opinion (but I know some pros share this view):
if you must rely on exact numerical analysis
or rigorous mathematical analysis for every move in Go...
well, it's certainly your privilege, and your life.
Thanks Ed, this really make sense to me, I feel like in a maze, trying different way to get out (well, I'm even not sure I really want to get out after all
)... anyway, the "rigorous mathematical analysis" path would certainly be a dead end for me... so I should try something else.
The more I think to it, the more I think that "points" is not the only reason that make me play moves like 'a' in post 300.
I suppose fear to lose a group is also part of the equation. Key here seems to gain more confidence in my playing...
Also lot's a things still mixed up in my head for example :
Ok,
is not so good in this case but the kind of move that confuse me a bit here is more 
which "may" also looks like an early end game move so to decide when it is good to play that kind of second line move, or when it's just a kind of 'pass' is still difficult for me.
EdLee wrote:By the way, it may be benefitial to you (and others)
if you point out certain moves, in your game reviews,
that are your reflex moves. Some people may point out
to you whether they are good or bad reflexes.
That's a good idea
@Bill :
Thanks, as Black I prefer D over C
and as white I prefer B over A -but still fear a move at 'a', that has to do with my confidence problem I think
I mean that's the kind of situation where :
- if I'm white and black plays at 'b' I would think "oh no..."
- and if I'm black, playing 'a' and then white reply at 'b' I would also think "oh no..." (why am I playing go...
)Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
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skydyr
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Re: OCA's log
Referring to the previous post, in the first example, is good because black already has a pincer stone in place, meaning white is cramped on the side. With , white can't play there himself to make eyespace, and white is also no longer guaranteed eyespace on the side of the board unless he responds. This serves to keep white's group weak, which is the real purpose of the move. The fact that it helps stabilize black's group on the bottom is the secondary benefit, so that black can continue attacking without worrying about this group too much. Any additional points it makes are just gravy.
In the earlier examples, white's group isn't in any direct danger, because he already has a nice extension down the side or can make one any time it may become necessary. Because it doesn't change the status of the group, it's only a move for points.
is good because black already has a pincer stone in place, meaning white is cramped on the side. With , white can't play there himself to make eyespace, and white is also no longer guaranteed eyespace on the side of the board unless he responds. This serves to keep white's group weak, which is the real purpose of the move. The fact that it helps stabilize black's group on the bottom is the secondary benefit, so that black can continue attacking without worrying about this group too much. Any additional points it makes are just gravy.In the earlier examples, white's group isn't in any direct danger, because he already has a nice extension down the side or can make one any time it may become necessary. Because it doesn't change the status of the group, it's only a move for points.
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Bill Spight
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oca wrote:The more I think to it, the more I think that "points" is not the only reason that make me play moves like 'a' in post 300.
I suppose fear to lose a group is also part of the equation. Key here seems to gain more confidence in my playing...
Also lot's a things still mixed up in my head for example :
Ok,
so to decide when it is good to play that kind of second line move, or when it's just a kind of 'pass' is still difficult for me.
looks like an endgame play. The reason that it is not is that the life of the White group is not settled yet. It is an attacking play that makes a bit of territory. That is often the case with such plays in the opening. Deciding whether they are good plays or not is not always easy. Welcome to the club. 
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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oca
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Re:
Visualization mislead me... I should try to read deeper the meaning of moves...
Here for example, when I "look" at that position, I really feel that black is a better, when I "think" at the position, I "somehow" understand that this is an equals results because white as "sente".
But I think that during a game, what I "just see" may influence me too much, I should be carful... (and in a more general way, I also think that's true for the whole life... maybe we belive to much in what we can see)
Here for example, when I "look" at that position, I really feel that black is a better, when I "think" at the position, I "somehow" understand that this is an equals results because white as "sente".
But I think that during a game, what I "just see" may influence me too much, I should be carful... (and in a more general way, I also think that's true for the whole life... maybe we belive to much in what we can see)
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
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oca
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Re: OCA's log
quick break again in my joseki study to post that game, which was not that usual
In the first part of the game, till ~17, white choosed to develope from one corner, I tried to take important points.
Then, let's say from 18, white started a few reduction/invasion, that I failed to handle (my 27 is really too slow for instance...)
I don't liked that much my handling of the low/left corner invasion (starting at move 60)
And the worse thing : I also tried to hard to kill a lot of single stones (moves starting at move 93) but white got a wall in result (position at move 98) which I then failed to invade (starting at 99)...
So I'm not happy with my playing, but still liked the game as white idea of building from one corner was something I never saw before.
Here is the game, any comments welcome !
In the first part of the game, till ~17, white choosed to develope from one corner, I tried to take important points.
Then, let's say from 18, white started a few reduction/invasion, that I failed to handle (my 27 is really too slow for instance...)
I don't liked that much my handling of the low/left corner invasion (starting at move 60)
And the worse thing : I also tried to hard to kill a lot of single stones (moves starting at move 93) but white got a wall in result (position at move 98) which I then failed to invade (starting at 99)...
So I'm not happy with my playing, but still liked the game as white idea of building from one corner was something I never saw before.
Here is the game, any comments welcome !
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cross cut,-
tentano
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Re: OCA's log
This sets off my alarm bells. Switch to super tight play. This player is utterly worthless at the opening, but makes up for it with fighting. That their opening is so much worse than yours, while their rank is higher should have you very worried about all the fights to come.
, 
and 
are not keeping things simple. You will pay for this.
Q17 is better because of the vulnerability at P17.
How about R18? It guarantees THREE eyes. And no aji.
You abandon J17, but this shape can still be messed with. E17 is safer.
White is being very hopeful. E18 would be much better here.
So here you've already given up on that corner?
Silly white, this is where you play D17 and take it. 
Try reading out how white would save those two stones.
This is the more exciting choice. NEVER play this unless you're certain you can read ahead about the same as your opponent or better. C8 is much simpler.
This move doesn't break through or secure anything. It also doesn't break the ladder. Why not C12?
Okay, not that impressive. Also, if white must catch it, E11 is much better since it 100% guarantees an eye.
This move chooses to keep G3 over the corner/lower left side. I happen to think this is a bad choice. I would have played C3 without hesitating. The following fight is messy, but you're doing worse than white.
Stretching is more effective than capturing in this specific case. You then have three and four liberties against a stone in atari which can only run into a ladder.Overall, your fighting sense should tingle sooner, and you need to accept small losses to avoid much bigger ones. And whenever things get unusual, play for safety and simplicity. Your opponent knows the weird complication they're using on you far better than you do. It's probably very badly inefficient, and you can afford to be a little overly conservative.
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oca
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Re: OCA's log
Thank you EdLee and tentano !
I really missed that I did not that good with the cross-cut !
As a comparaison, this a more "classic" game, that I played right after the game we just talked about.
IMO, I think I was a bit better here... Still the worse sequence for me is 94 - 101 which I really failed to read... 96 was too greddy...
I also tried at move 16 a joseki that was new for me. At what I saw in the app "Igowin Joseki",
seems to be the first "not so good move" in that sequence, but I cannot really tell why... 
is a miss click that I wanted to play at C9...
is also I miss read, during the game, I read the the ladder was not working for me...
222 is a quite lucky one, as black did see the double atari.
from 180, I tried my best to keep sente. not sure 190 is sente however... and 192 sure isn't sente at all...
I think my opponnent did its "mistakes" too, for instance 203 is not that annoying...
Finally, I'm happy with moves like 206 or the 264 - 266 combinaison, that's not so ofen I found that kind of combinaison.
278 was a mistake, black even don't need 279.
I really missed that I did not that good with the cross-cut !
As a comparaison, this a more "classic" game, that I played right after the game we just talked about.
IMO, I think I was a bit better here... Still the worse sequence for me is 94 - 101 which I really failed to read... 96 was too greddy...
I also tried at move 16 a joseki that was new for me. At what I saw in the app "Igowin Joseki",
seems to be the first "not so good move" in that sequence, but I cannot really tell why... is a miss click that I wanted to play at C9... is also I miss read, during the game, I read the the ladder was not working for me...222 is a quite lucky one, as black did see the double atari.
from 180, I tried my best to keep sente. not sure 190 is sente however... and 192 sure isn't sente at all...
I think my opponnent did its "mistakes" too, for instance 203 is not that annoying...
Finally, I'm happy with moves like 206 or the 264 - 266 combinaison, that's not so ofen I found that kind of combinaison.
278 was a mistake, black even don't need 279.
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Amelia
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Re: OCA's log
A couple of ideas, to take with lots of salt (considering my rank).
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EdLee
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Re: OCA's log
Hi Amelia, thanks a lot for your comments
Hi Edlee, I can see that
is the same as in post 310, both games where played in a row, so I didn't saw your comments before playing that game.
That said, I played yesterday another game which also went to crosscut at
. I still choosed to atari at 
(after exchanging 
for 
).
I wonder if that was correct to atari this time or if extending (at 'a' ?) would be better in that position too.
So here is the sequence :
The whole game is here :
Hi Edlee, I can see that
is the same as in post 310, both games where played in a row, so I didn't saw your comments before playing that game.That said, I played yesterday another game which also went to crosscut at
. I still choosed to atari at (after exchanging for ).I wonder if that was correct to atari this time or if extending (at 'a' ?) would be better in that position too.
So here is the sequence :
The whole game is here :
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EdLee
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Hi oca,
You still have to answer the same questions:
Why ? What's your plan after the atari ?
What are your reason(s) for the atari ?
So, why the exchange - ?
Also, is not a cross-cut -- it's just a cut.
You still have to answer the same questions:
Why ? What's your plan after the atari
?What are your reason(s) for the atari
?So, why the exchange
- ?Also,
is not a cross-cut -- it's just a cut.
right idea, but missed the vital point R5.
I want to say this trunk feels strange, but I'm not sure.
this atari is correct; kill B.
atari F19 first.